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I've been stamping with them for years! And now I an't sell my cards with them? I am sooooo angry! I always avoid stamp companies if I can't sell the card I'm making. I have collected to many Penny blacks and now I can't use them? MAD MAD MAD!!!
It doesn't look like a blanket ban on selling to me, it looks like they're just trying to get a handle on it by getting people to get written permission first, they supply an e-mail address for you to submit any design you want to sell. It's a bit more effort than many companies' policies, that's true, but if you're making and selling small numbers (and not online) I suspect you can still use your collection - I'd check with them before you get too mad or decide to sell off your stamps!
(I'm taking it that their web site has the latest and you're looking at this policy, BTW)
I've been stamping with them for years! And now I an't sell my cards with them? I am sooooo angry! I always avoid stamp companies if I can't sell the card I'm making. I have collected to many Penny blacks and now I can't use them? MAD MAD MAD!!!
I am not lawyer, so this isn't legal advice. Maybe more of an opinion... BUT I would like to point out that any stamps you purchased prior to the "new" angel policy should be exempt. In my mind, it would't be fair for them to start anything with you over old designs or older purchases. Because well, you bought them PRIOR to the current policy. In my mind, you bought them with the understanding that they could be used in items for sale. THEY would be in violation of an implied contract with you.
You probably have more experience with these sorts of rules, and the spirit they embody, so use your best judgement.
Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to use the old stamps.... I hope that helps at least a little bit.
I do sell online sniff I sell in my etsy shop.
This is the reply I have gotten so far:
Hello Michelle,
Thank you for your inquiry.
Yes we did change our angel policy
because our artists have been seeing alot
of computer images of their copyright art
online. Our angel policy has always been
clear about hand stamping only---with the copyright
info stated on the back of each card.
I am not completely clear --- why this is an
issue for you. Hope this helps clarify
Best Regards
It really dosn't clarify, IT sais right in the policy No hand stamped images can be sold online.
I saw the change about no online selling. This is stated quite clear ~ not sure why they would question why it's an issue for you unless you never mentioned the online selling.
And with this policy means no Penny Black stamps for me (and more money for those companies who allow online sales .
I am sorry that you have built up a selection that is no longer viable for you if you want to be in compliance. That stinks.
I think the dividing line is a digital image and a physically stamped image. When I say physically stamped, I mean rubber stamp inked and then applied to paper.
It sounds like maybe their stamps have been made in to digital files, then sold or distributed. Their artists have chosen to work with Penny Black. The artists have chosen a rubber stamp as how their art is to be transferred to paper. My interpretation is that they don't want the images to be digitized and then sold on line.
This policy may not be written clearly enough, and that may be the crux of the problem. I say take them to task and make them give you specific acceptable instances. Is it ok to sell the image when it is used on a completed project?? Can the image be offered for sale as an element for a third person to assemble later??
They should be able to explain their policy in concrete terms.
I could be wrong, but I do believe that one way that digital stamps are made is by taking a drawing and scanning it into your computer... if I understand that correclty, then I can see pretty clearly how the images can be "stolen" and resold without credit to the artist.
I do sell online sniff I sell in my etsy shop.
This is the reply I have gotten so far:
Hello Michelle,
Thank you for your inquiry.
Yes we did change our angel policy
because our artists have been seeing alot
of computer images of their copyright art
online. Our angel policy has always been
clear about hand stamping only---with the copyright
info stated on the back of each card.
I am not completely clear --- why this is an
issue for you. Hope this helps clarify
Best Regards
It really dosn't clarify, IT sais right in the policy No hand stamped images can be sold online.
I think this is the answer, "hand stamping only" and "copyright info on the back of the card."
Just went to read the angel policy on their site.
Terms and Conditions for Limited Commercial Use of Penny Black Stamps and Other Products.
1. Penny Black stamps and images are original artwork created by or for Penny Black, Inc. and subject to full copyright protection.
2. As such, its stamps and images are sold for the personal use of the consumer, without right to reproduce the copyrighted images for commercial purposes.
3. Any hand stamped project, for commercial use, must be submitted to [email protected] for written authorization.
Quote:
No hand stamped cards can be sold online. No online reproduction of our images will be permitted.
4. Commercial use that violates or exceeds the above restrictions is prohibited and shall be considered a breach of the copyrights of Penny Black, Inc.
Looks like they do NOT allow online sales of cards anymore. I too had purchased them because they allowed online sales. Still have a big wishlist for their newer stamps but now I probably won't buy them :(
I'm new to the idea of selling my cards (up to this point I've barely been a card or two ahead of the ones I need personally, LOL) so I don't understand at all what the difference is between online sales of hand stamped cards or selling them at a craft show or even from a box on my husband's desk at work... Are people selling the files of the pictures of their cards as e-cards or whatever or the cards themselves? How dumb and tech-challenged do I sound?:oops:
In the thread about Provocraft suing MTC and SCAL, there was an article with some really good information about angel policies in general, and once you purchase something they cannot restrict how you use it.....
I don't sell my cards, I gladly give them away. I would never want to put some company's name on the back of my cards. My own logo goes on the back of my cards.
I've been wondering if I make a bunch of cards & donate to an organization which they "sell" for donations, do I need to worry about Angel policies and putting copyrights on the backs? Seems like a huge pain for donating.
I honestly don't care if a company name is on the back of my cards. I say copyright (well, I use the symbol) and the company name. Above that, I stamp my company information. My customers don't care either. It's stated in my policies and customers buy anyways.
I get if a company sales no angel policy from the beginning. Fine, I don't buy the stamps and am out no money. But if you have an angel policy which you revoke, you lulled us into spending money that we can't get back.
This one is pretty clear that they don't allow hand stamped items online so I have no idea how their response is helpful in any way when they say they allow hand stamping. It makes it sound as if they don't know their own policy.
Hi everyone, just thought I'd pop back in and report that I emailed the company and was told that I could sell my cards online, just not the stamped images (which of course I see as a big No-No). Just checked their policy again and they updated it again.
Quote:
Terms and Conditions for Limited Commercial Use of Penny Black Stamps and Other Products.Te
1. Penny Black stamps and images are original artwork created by or for Penny Black, Inc. and subject to full copyright protection.
2. As such, its stamps and images are sold for the personal use of the consumer, without right to reproduce the copyrighted images for commercial purposes, except as expressly permitted by Penny Black, Inc.
3. Penny Black, Inc. permits its valued customers the following limited rights of commercial use. All stamp impressions must be made by hand. No mechanical or other form of reproduction is permitted. Only limited quantities, not to exceed 36 per design, maybe made for commercial use. Where possible display Copyright Penny Black, Inc.
4. Hand stamped cards may be sold online, but only as fully finished, completed projects.
5. Commercial use that violates or exceeds the above restrictions is prohibited and shall be considered a breach of the copyrights of Penny Black, Inc.
6. For any further questions or information regarding our copyright policy please email [email protected]
I'm glad to see that they clarified that. Most companies that have angel policies stipulate that you can sell hand stamped finished (ie coloured in images) products only. However, they do put a limit on how many times you can use any particular image in sales by limiting it to 36 per design. So, if you're selling a card and a lot of people want to buy it, you can only sell 36 of it, before you need to change the design. Not sure how much you have to change the design, but at least it does clarify the original question and open up your options with their stamps. I really like their stamps and use them quite a bit too.
Their policy changed somewhere last year. I checked with them in Oct and they told me the same thing, only handstamped, no more than 36pcs per design and cannot be sold online. About the display of their copyright they only say where possible. It's not a must.
I'm glad to see the changes as well. When this thread was initially posted, I emailed them as well. I do sell a few cards, but I do mean a FEW (I've never sold more than a dozen in any given month) to some co-workers and friends. I've never sold online. When I first read that you would have to email them a pic of the card & get permission for each design....well, for me it wouldn't be worth it.
They did reply back that it was ok to continue selling in that way, which I was glad to hear. I really didn't want to have to give up my PBs!
__________________ "You may not have lost all your marbles, but there's definitely a hole in the bag." Grumpy Cat
I'm glad to see that they clarified that. Most companies that have angel policies stipulate that you can sell hand stamped finished (ie coloured in images) products only. However, they do put a limit on how many times you can use any particular image in sales by limiting it to 36 per design. So, if you're selling a card and a lot of people want to buy it, you can only sell 36 of it, before you need to change the design. Not sure how much you have to change the design, but at least it does clarify the original question and open up your options with their stamps. I really like their stamps and use them quite a bit too.
I would think the 36 x per design refers to their design not yours. TBH we (stampers card makers) would probably say sell 36 x per stamp (i.e. their design).
I am glad that Penny Black decided to change/update their policy..I was going to say beforehand that they would be losing A LOT of current customers if they didn't update/change the writing of their policy. Happy they changed it. I love their stamps!
In the thread about Provocraft suing MTC and SCAL, there was an article with some really good information about angel policies in general, and once you purchase something they cannot restrict how you use it.....
Thanks for posting this. I always wondered how a company could limit the way you use a product after buying it. If you use it in the manner it was intended (ink to paper) and not copies or mechanicaly printed, I just don't know how they could enforce a policy that limits you to using an image a certain number of times? HOGWASH
This whole thing is funny to me because I consider stamps to be an "art supply" markers, embossing powder, pencils, and glue are also art supplies. And of course companies have graphic artists and designers design the packaging and even the barrels of markers. I have never seen a company tell anyone they cant sell something made with their markers. KWIM?
__________________ ~Vee
It's not who you know-it's whom you know.
I have never understood why any company that is selling stamps would want to restrict the use of the stamp!!?? These companies are making money everytime their stamp is sold....seriously!!! This whole angel policy thing is for the birds. It would be like buying a pair of jeans and being told next to the care instructions that you can only wear the jeans on thursday's. How many people would buy those jeans? I steer clear of the companies that get too nit-picky.
One day I hope to have my own stamp line and anyone that is gracious enough to support my creativity will be able to do so without all the craziness!!!!
At some point the Penny Black policy stated that they don't allow anything to be sold online, only locally. I had emailed them after that new policy came out and was so happy that they told me that they were going to rewrite it and allow selling of cards. I have many of their stamps, and still have a wishlist going on, I have decided to start selling some cards again which will help me get my stamps faster.
I know this is sorta an old thread, but I just got off the phone with the owner of Penny Black and we were discussing this very question. She is going to re-write her policy to make it clearer but what Penny Black means is:
YES you can sell your fully completed, individually handcolored and handmade one-of-a-kind projects. You ARE allowed to sell these finished cards on Ebay or Etsy as well as say, at a craft fair.
An angel policy is actually intended to GIVE you that right to sell your finished hand-craft.
xoMo
Oh, I kind of wish you had just started a new thread, LOL!! Reading the policy linked by Joanne, I couldn't understand why anyone had any problems with this and kept reading to see what I had missed!! Obviously, the policy has been revised since this thread was started.
I am happy to see that Penny Black has a friendly policy after all!
ETA: Even more confused now that I see in post #18, dated last April, the "new" policy is highlighted as well.
well i just removed penny black from my buy list.i respect copyright but i also respect the rights that go with what i buy.doesnt sound to me as if they do.the change is not enough.companies that had images much better than than theirs have gone under because they restricted too much.if i buy the stamp ,they gave me the right to apply ink and stamp it as many times as i want..
br3n
I just said they gave you MORE rights -- not fewer!
No company would restrict the right for you to apply ink and stamp it for personal use as often as you want. They mention in their policy here:
Only limited quantities, not to exceed 36 per design, may be made for commercial use. Where possible display Copyright Penny Black, Inc.
But what this is is really just an effort to stop mass-production. I have a meeting with PB this afternoon (yes, you heard it here first, I will be signing a contract with them to produce my designs in physical form.) I will mention this number "36" and see if we can reword that too to be more along the lines of what they MEAN -- because I agree it can be confusing.
I think it was worded that way by lawyers -- and like I said, it is NOT meant for normal crafters, it's meant in case of gross misuse of the license by someone trying to profit unfairly on the intellectual property (the image.) For instance in the case of someone trying to sell large numbers of identical cards that could not possibly have been done by one person. I highly doubt anyone here would try to do that. Would anyone ever do 36 identical cards and try to sell them?
Tell me if I'm being confusing!
Actually yes, many card crafters create Wedding Stationery by the 100's. However, I would contend that even with the numbers that actually do this there are many more that get no where near the 36 useable stampings out of a stamp so that it probably all evens out. And even less that want to sell them.
FWIW I tend to make around 100 identical cards at Christmas for personal usage. So again something like a Christmas stamp may get more usage - however I can also guarantee you that I have more Christmas stamps than I will probably ever use in my lifetime already! So if there is someone with a cottage industry that gets a company order they may want that leeway however, I again I would say that it would all even out in the end by all the other consumers that never sell and use their stamps occasionally or just collect them!
Before they had made the very restrictive change to their angel policy, I was surprised to find people selling CD's with blank images of many different Penny Black stamps. Obviously, they may have originally had to purchase a stamp to make the first impression, however they then scanned the image onto the CD for sale. Some of these CD's offered over a hundred different stamp images on one CD. If you bought the CD, you could print out all your favorite Penny Black images like digital stamps as many times as you wanted without ever having to pay a cent to PB. There were also many listings offering hand stamped blank impressions of PB stamps such as 10 different images or 15 of one image for $3 to $4. I had sent a couple of e-bay links of these blank stamped impressions and CD's to PB telling them that I found this practice disturbing and that it made me angry that they and their designers were being ripped off. They replied with a thank you and that they were aware of it and it made them angry too.
I really think this type of behavior is what caused them to change their original angel policy. I believe they were trying to mainly address the on-line selling of blank images, I just think it was worded by attorneys who had no idea how stampers and crafters do what they do. I am glad they have reviewed the harsher policy and made changes to make the policy more reasonable.
I believe that stamp companies have the right to protect their copyright when this type of thing is happening. If they don't, I don't know how they can stay in business to keep on producing the stamps we all love. I certainly support their efforts in this.
However, I do find companies like Flourishes who have stated it is their policy not to allow trading of ANY of their stamped images a bit unreasonable. I find it rather incomprehensible that they should take offense at my stamping off one copy of a stamp I am using and give it to a friend while we are stamping together in my craft room.
I don't sell my cards or crafts, however, I base my purchasing on a company's angel policies because I want to support those companies who do support those trying to make a few dollars with their crafting talents. I still buy Penny Black images, but as much as it pains me because I love their beautiful images, I will no longer purchase Flourishes stamps or other companies who espouse policies that just take the joy out of using their products.
I just said they gave you MORE rights -- not fewer!
No company would restrict the right for you to apply ink and stamp it for personal use as often as you want. They mention in their policy here:
Only limited quantities, not to exceed 36 per design, may be made for commercial use. Where possible display Copyright Penny Black, Inc.
But what this is is really just an effort to stop mass-production. I have a meeting with PB this afternoon (yes, you heard it here first, I will be signing a contract with them to produce my designs in physical form.) I will mention this number "36" and see if we can reword that too to be more along the lines of what they MEAN -- because I agree it can be confusing.
I think it was worded that way by lawyers -- and like I said, it is NOT meant for normal crafters, it's meant in case of gross misuse of the license by someone trying to profit unfairly on the intellectual property (the image.) For instance in the case of someone trying to sell large numbers of identical cards that could not possibly have been done by one person. I highly doubt anyone here would try to do that. Would anyone ever do 36 identical cards and try to sell them?
Tell me if I'm being confusing!
This is totally off topic Mo, didn't even finish reading your whole post yet, but wanted to say how excited I am to read that you signed with Penny Black. That is amazing news!! Love Penny Black and I love your digis!!
In the thread about Provocraft suing MTC and SCAL, there was an article with some really good information about angel policies in general, and once you purchase something they cannot restrict how you use it.....
In the thread about Provocraft suing MTC and SCAL, there was an article with some really good information about angel policies in general, and once you purchase something they cannot restrict how you use it.....
When did Penny Black change the angel policy?
