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I do not know a lot about the angel policy but here is a scenario. Someone stamps a card, submits it for publication and gets paid for the submission. Is this allowed? They are essentially selling it to a magazine to be used. Not only is the artist profiting from the stamped image but ultimately the magazine is as well. Does the magazine have to also pay a royalty to the stamp company? Maybe the magazine views it as advertising since the stamp company is mentioned. This is just a situation I was pondering as I read this thread. NE thoughts?
BTW: I have never been fortunate enough to have this happen to me. Just curious.
NE1 care to address this? It seems to have gotten lost in this thread.
I've taken time to read the Angel Policy/Copyright threads on several occasions and I am always amazed at how "heated" this topic gets. We live in a free country and folks are gonna do what they choose to do, what is right for them individually: some will abide by the rule, some will bend the rule, some will break the rule.
I subscribe to several craft industry newsletters, where topics like this get discussed by experts in the field: Manufacturers, retailers, lawyers, etc. Interestingly enough it was mentioned that companies (like SU, CTMH) copyright images in the entire catalog (this was mentioned in a previous post). When the attorneys weighed in on this from a legal perspective, many of the images are NOT copyright defendable in court. Based on "uniqueness of content/image" comes into play. The attorneys agreed that letters, common shapes (circles/squares), patterns (waves/stripes) and certain other areas are not defensible in court. They also mentioned that although a variety of infringements can occur, the ones most companies go after is "mass production" using their images. Most often it relates to profitting in a massive way and possible quality/integrity of the product being sold. I think new graphic technologies and global use of the internet brought these issues to the forefront for companies.
Yeah it's people with your attitude that comes back and bites people's backsides when people think they need to tattle! You did see me walk across the SU convention stage didn't you? ;) rofl!
Don't get me started again...I have a feeling that if this EVER gets to court...the copyright will not hold up. (Thier attorney is bigger then MY attorney.) Believe me I'm the first person to want to uphold a persons right to choose i.e. the artist...but the very purpose of a RUBBER STAMP is to make more images of the chosen stamp. I'm NOT in my basement making copies of the RUBBER STAMP to sell the RUBBER STAMP!
Geeez!
Oh yeah, did ya also know it cost $75.00 a hour for a copyright search? Did you know that SU has their CATALOGS copyrighted??? Do you know the history of the copyright laws in this country??!! And why we even have them? AND how they have changed over the past few decades??
Like I said don't get me started...you are talking out your backside!
Are you SURE you don't WORK for SU directly??!! You sure have a love affair going with them...
It really is a shame that some people can't be nice. I'm a new SU customer, not a demo. I have followed a few threads on here, although some are not worth following. This thread started as one person being disappointed with SU's Angel Policy. It didn't need to turn into something nasty. I'm sorry that some people choose not to follow the rules, although that is their choice. But if they choose to break those rules, then they should be prepared for the consequences. I used to be a CM consultant. I signed a contract, which is legally binding. Had I sold any CM products on *bay, I would expect to be let go from the company. That is breach of contract. Would I be upset that someone turned me in? Maybe, but I am the one that broke the rules. If I made cards with SU images and sold them at the mall, I would expect to get caught. We cannot decide which rules we want to follow, and which we don't. You have the right to not buy a company's product, if you don't like their rules.
I'm not talking about anyone specific, but it's interesting that many people don't like SU's Angel Policy, and yet some people get upset that their cards are cased with giving proper credit. Isn't that almost the same thing? No one likes to work hard on something, only to see someone else profit from their hard work. Again, I'm not talking about anyone specific. I didn't go back and check other people's previous posts. I'm just comparing one thread with another. Please no flames.
Location: I try to live in LaLa Land, but people keep interrupting me!
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PaperRapt,
Wow that is interesting info. Thank you for posting it. Could you possible direct me to any of the newletters you mentioned? I just did a quick scan of links on your website and will look more closely, it looks very interesting.
Thanks again,
Kim
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaperRapt
I've taken time to read the Angel Policy/Copyright threads on several occasions and I am always amazed at how "heated" this topic gets. We live in a free country and folks are gonna do what they choose to do, what is right for them individually: some will abide by the rule, some will bend the rule, some will break the rule.
I subscribe to several craft industry newsletters, where topics like this get discussed by experts in the field: Manufacturers, retailers, lawyers, etc. Interestingly enough it was mentioned that companies (like SU, CTMH) copyright images in the entire catalog (this was mentioned in a previous post). When the attorneys weighed in on this from a legal perspective, many of the images are NOT copyright defendable in court. Based on "uniqueness of content/image" comes into play. The attorneys agreed that letters, common shapes (circles/squares), patterns (waves/stripes) and certain other areas are not defensible in court. They also mentioned that although a variety of infringements can occur, the ones most companies go after is "mass production" using their images. Most often it relates to profitting in a massive way and possible quality/integrity of the product being sold. I think new graphic technologies and global use of the internet brought these issues to the forefront for companies.
I LOVE the new catty!!! I got to look at it online today. There are a TON more saying stamps and I do like quite a few of the sets and already have a list building. And buying them to use with acrylic blocks is SOOO much cheaper and easier and more compact to store. With over 100 SU sets already, I am hard pressed for room for more stamps. And best of all...I can sell my cards and projects using these sets!
__________________ Michelle Thomas Craft Well, Wrap Often, Stamp Much!! I FiNallY DiD iT - TAC AnGeL #2645
Location: I try to live in LaLa Land, but people keep interrupting me!
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Let me explain one thiing about SU/ eBay...if you are turned into them, you get auctions canceled, or if you are turned into SU you can be slapped through ebay's/SU's (VERO). I know this gets Really confusing to those who haven't/don't sell on ebay. Nor do you probably care, lol! my point is this:
If you become a target by SU demos, as I have been, you have to suffer the consequences. Otherwise you skate free and clear. So if I'd have been slick enough to use a nickname here on SCS, no one would have put 2 & 2 together.
If you think it isn't possible go to be singled out go to ebay and do a simple search on 'Stampin Up handmade cards' (SU copyright infringment) or 'Stampin Up 2006 catalogs' (It is, btw an ebay policy that NO current merchandise cattys can be sold on ebay, it would cut into ebay's bottom line)
And please, don't go turning them in for gosh-sakes! :(
Oh and btw, I purchased the SU card fronts on eBay from a SU Demo, but since I am targeted I can't get my moeny back out of them! I think anyone in MY same situation would be a bit irrate to say the least.
So now that my head is spinning trying to explain what has been going on for the past 9+ months. You all probably have headaches trying to get a handle on it. lol!
Kim
Quote:
Originally Posted by speanburg4
It really is a shame that some people can't be nice. I'm a new SU customer, not a demo. I have followed a few threads on here, although some are not worth following. This thread started as one person being disappointed with SU's Angel Policy. It didn't need to turn into something nasty. I'm sorry that some people choose not to follow the rules, although that is their choice. But if they choose to break those rules, then they should be prepared for the consequences. I used to be a CM consultant. I signed a contract, which is legally binding. Had I sold any CM products on *bay, I would expect to be let go from the company. That is breach of contract. Would I be upset that someone turned me in? Maybe, but I am the one that broke the rules. If I made cards with SU images and sold them at the mall, I would expect to get caught. We cannot decide which rules we want to follow, and which we don't. You have the right to not buy a company's product, if you don't like their rules.
I'm not talking about anyone specific, but it's interesting that many people don't like SU's Angel Policy, and yet some people get upset that their cards are cased with giving proper credit. Isn't that almost the same thing? No one likes to work hard on something, only to see someone else profit from their hard work. Again, I'm not talking about anyone specific. I didn't go back and check other people's previous posts. I'm just comparing one thread with another. Please no flames.
I want to make it clear that although I don't *agree* with the Angel policy, I still abide by it. As stated by a PP, when I agreed to be a demo, I was aware of the policy and will follow it. Doesn't mean I like it!
For a long time, I would only buy SU!. I would go to stamp stores and say that I liked somethng, but put it back. DH would ask why I didn't get it and I would say 'because it's not SU!'. Well, I am finally realizing SU! is not the end-all-be-all of rubber stamping. There are many companies that have beautiful stamps (for lower prices, less strict Angel Policies, etc.)
I am looking forward to spreading my wings and exporing what else is out there.
I think that for those of us who are SU demos (and I am in the process of resigning myself actually for many reasons), it is a very frustrating no-win situation with the ebay policy. People will do what they want. I know I used to get mad, Infuriated even that people were selling on ebay and that SU wasn't doing anything about it. I think it is a very costly endeavor for them and financially they can't afford to keep up with it. So perhaps they need to change their policies, but I don't see that happening. So like you said...people will get away with it and some will be targeted. Sorry that you are bearing the cross for all the people who are out there doing illegal things on ebay. :(
__________________ Michelle Thomas Craft Well, Wrap Often, Stamp Much!! I FiNallY DiD iT - TAC AnGeL #2645
I don't want to start an arguement, and I don't want to upset anyone. I don't know SU policy, so I can't comment on it. But I do know CM policy. I think the purpose of the "no internet sales" clause is so everyone gets to play on a level playing field. With CM, we earn titles and prizes based on sales and recruiting. Those sales are supposed to be generated from home classes and shows. If I am doing home classes and averaging $300 a class, I may or may not earn anything. But if someone else is selling tons of stuff on ebay and earning prizes, they have an unfair advantage. Because I am playing by the rules, I am, in a way, being penalized. And that internet person may or may not be taking potential customers away from me. I can see why some demos would be upset with this happening. Although I don't know that I would go out of my way to turn that person in. Even if those other people don't get caught, that doesn't make it right. Like I tell my 7yo, just because so-and-so is doing it, doesn't make it right.
CM may be a little different from SU, in that we don't just sell a product, we also sell our time and knowledge. I don't sell supplies to someone, and not see them for 3 months. I help them actually complete their albums, also. My SU demo doesn't come over and help me make my cards. She may give me great ideas, but she doesn't help me make them. Although some demos may, I suppose.
just to be clear, my problem is not selling SU! on the Bay. No intention on doing that. My issue is with selling the projects I make to a store or at a location other than a craft fair.
I do not know you nor do I really know your story except that you had an ebay store that was shut down. Is that correct?
I do have a question though. Are you upset that you were shut down without cause or that you were caught (or tattled on) when others get away with it? If you were doing nothing wrong, then I agree with you and think you are right to be upset. If you were in fact breaking policy, do you think you deserve to "walk across the convention stage"?
I also don't really understand how you "walk across the convention stage" if you were never a demo --- one of the threads you posted says that.
I don't sell my cards, and don't plan to. I think SU's policy may be strict, but it is their policy. I buy stamps to make cards for my friends and family. I think that was the original intent of SU, and many companies like them. They don't want me making a business out of reselling their images. Many other companies, in many other industries, have similar policies. My husband manages a restaurant. They have tvs in the bar area. They can't order a pay-per-view fight to air in their bar, unless they pay the fee for each person that will be in the bar watching. He doesn't like it, but he can be fined and go to jail for breaking that rule. Likewise, Blockbuster can't go to Target and buy a copy of a movie and then rent it out to people. They buy it from the manufacturer, and they pay a higher price to make up for the rental fees. Scalping is illegal in many states/cities also. So SU is not alone in wanting to limit the sale of their products. Would you want someone buying one of your cards and then reproducing it and selling them all over town?
If you do not want to abide by SU! policies, do not use their products. The easiest way to make money often will not work out in the long run.
I would like to sell my cards in a store my friend owns, but I do not do it because it is wrong and it is not worth jeopardizing my demonstrator status.
There are good reasons why SU! does not allow ebay sales and I trust that they have a sound rationale for their Angel Policy as well. I have found SU! to be fair. It is my choice to stay with them, to choose to stay with them and disregard their guidelines would be unethical.
I think far too often indivduals are thinking ONLY about themselves and not the big picture. SU! has to take into account what is best for their company, their artist, and their demos.
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I am selling cards here in norway, (i don't own a single su stamp) and i can tell you from my personal experience, that the money i make of that barely covers what i payed for the stamps, so i do feel that you are mixing things a little because it is not about making big money out of selling cards with su stamps images on them. One person can't make handmade cards and have that as a business.
What each and every one would be making by selling cards, are pennies compared to what we spend buying supplies. That's why i don't think that the comparization with pay tv or big business making big money by ripping of other companies images is really relevant.
I've stayed out of these arguments, but they are really bothering me. If you're going to make a business - small or large - of selling cards, etc, then you need to make a decision as a business person:
* Stamp & sell images from SU! (and perhaps other companies) abiding by SU published angel policy restrictions. Invest in your "capital equipment" (stamps, etc) to support your business. Your volume and business growth opportunities will likely be lower because of the restrictions on places you can sell.
* Stamp & sell images from other manufacturers with more lenient angel policies. Invest in stamps from those companies and "divest" yourself of your SU stamps if you need the cash to spend on other companies. Your opportunities to sell your product will likely be greater if you can include "fixed" retail locations.
This is a business decision that each stamper who is going to sell cards must make. SU is not a monopoly - they have the right to run their business as they see fit. And we as stampers can choose to buy from the companies that best fit our needs. If you decide not to buy from SU because of the policies, it probably would be a good idea to let THEM know that. Complaining about it here won't give them the feedback they need as they continue to monitor their business...
Personally, I buy from SU because I like their images and quality. I do not sell my cards. If I wanted to do so, I would re-evaluate my SU decision. Don't know what I'd decide, but I would make that decision early in the process.
OK - that's my $.02... hopefully no flames will result
Edited to add: This is by no means a slam on those folks who are asking about the angel policy and are disappointed with it. That's well within all of our rights. I don't "love" it either. Rather, this is a statement about whether or not we blatantly violate it.
I know we're veering off course here. I've learned a lot reading this. I seem to have now gathered that it is illegal for anyone to sell anything on ebay that is not retired. Is that correct? I know people can't show photos of SU cards on ebay, but I thought they could sell them. Is that accurate? JUst curious. I'm not a demo, and I've never bought cards. I'd rather make them myself.
I seem to have now gathered that it is illegal for anyone to sell anything on ebay that is not retired. Is that correct? I know people can't show photos of SU cards on ebay, but I thought they could sell them. Is that accurate? JUst curious. I'm not a demo, and I've never bought cards. I'd rather make them myself.
Not quite.
It is illegal for demonstrators to sell current SU items on Ebay; demonstrators are allowed to sell retired items.
It is legal for non-demos to sell current or retired items on Ebay.
It is illegal for anyone to sell items stamped with SU images in a fixed retail location (craft store, ebay, etc.), but selling them at a non-permanent event (craft fair, etc) is allowed as long as the item is stamped with one of the SU stamps that includes the � symbol.
Does that make sense? Someone please correct me if I've got something incorrect. This is about as much of the angel policy as I really need to understand since I'm not a demo (maybe someday, though ;) !).
__________________ Paper Crafts Go-to-Gal member #1507gallery witticisms... a witty blog
