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Hi everyone! I recently found out that some companies have strict angel policies for their images. I want to sell some handmade cards online but most of my cards have images from different companies. For example the main image would be from one company and the sentiment would be from another. How would you credit these companies on your cards? Also, Stampin' Up! requires you to use their company's copyright stamp but if my card contains other companies other than SU!, would I use their logo stamp and then write the other company's copyright stuff too? If anyone has sold cards online (ie Etsy) I would love to know your advice! Thanks!!
This is a good question, and I've wondered the same myself! I use stamps from various companies on cards and there is AFAIK no simple answer (except perhaps listing them all)
This question got raised a while ago, and I made the same suggestion as Joan B, but someone came back and said that would not work, it has to be on the actual card. As Joan rightly says, this whole area is a mess- the only easy-ish way I can think of is to make up sticky labels with the info on and stick on the back of the card.
Cheeky answer here - If selling on Etsy list it as part of the listing. If the stamp manufacturer buys it from you and complains, oh dear you must have missed that one because you were so busy.
Or a some sort of stamping bio on the back- with all stamping supplies are owned by insert your name/etsy name etc here and are used within the boundaries of fair use.
Honestly, my personal thinking is that using a stamp is "fair use" and doesn't breach a company's copyright. Who wants a card with more writing on the back than on the card itself?
Seriously, what other craft makes people list the manufacturer of their supplies? Does a wood mill make a woodworker? I have clay Christmas ornaments cut from a cutter and pressed with a texture plate, hung from a ribbon - I don't know the manufacturer of either. I know these are images but as long as there isn't mechanical reproduction (which is outside of fair use) then what is the problem of using a stamp to stamp something that you go on to color/embellish as a secondary use.
Look at other crafts... can you just imagine if every time someone used old blue jeans to make something they had to get permission? Or how about silk flowers? Why aren't there copyright lists for every arrangement? etc.
Last edited by RiverIsis; 06-17-2014 at 12:21 PM..
Honestly, my personal thinking is that using a stamp is "fair use" and doesn't breach a company's copyright. Who wants a card with more writing on the back than on the card itself?
[...]
Seriously, what other craft makes people list the manufacturer of their supplies? [...] I know these are images but as long as there isn't mechanical reproduction (which is outside of fair use) then what is the problem of using a stamp to stamp something that you go on to color/embellish as a secondary use.
There are MANY threads here in General Stamping on this subject.
Just enter Copyright or Angel Policy in the search bar.
__________________ The quickest way for a parent to get a child's attention is to sit down and look comfortable. Practice safe eating always use condiments
Be careful of Licensed images! Disney, Sports Team Franchises, comic book heros, animated movie characters etc. Those uses are very strict with a no selling on because you would be in direct competition with any line that they may wish to manufacture or sell the manufacturing rights, even if they don't already. Those really are for personal use only.
I'm with RiverIsis on the copyright issues. And to muddy the waters, it depends on what country you are in. While the laws may be similar in some countries, there could be significant differences in others. I don't sell many cards anymore, but when I did, I just didn't use stamps from companies that stipulated I put something on my finished projects - to me it was forcing me to put free advertising for them on my work - ain't gonna happen.
I would love for a case to go to court just to ask the judge just how am I supposed to use this stamp?
For example I buy music. The instrument manufacturer isn't listed and if the instrument gets a custom paint job you can't readily tell what brand it is by a picture. Kinda hard to do that guitar solo without a guitar. And I haven't heard of a company getting a kickback from a guitar soloist for the use of their guitar for an album or tour.
You can see it. It is being used for the purpose it was intended. They are making money from using it. That specific type of guitar probably does have a copyright etc. But sitting there on a shelf it doesn't do anything - just like a stamp. It needs someone to use it.
I would love for a case to go to court just to ask the judge just how am I supposed to use this stamp?
For example I buy music. The instrument manufacturer isn't listed and if the instrument gets a custom paint job you can't readily tell what brand it is by a picture. Kinda hard to do that guitar solo without a guitar. And I haven't heard of a company getting a kickback from a guitar soloist for the use of their guitar for an album or tour.
You can see it. It is being used for the purpose it was intended. They are making money from using it. That specific type of guitar probably does have a copyright etc. But sitting there on a shelf it doesn't do anything - just like a stamp. It needs someone to use it.
It all has to due with Art/Image copyright. This is completely different from a guitar.There is a Ton of info on Goggle on Art/Image copyright.
Guitar making music is totally different than someone reproducing a Von Gogh painting and selling it as their own,and making money off it.
__________________ The quickest way for a parent to get a child's attention is to sit down and look comfortable. Practice safe eating always use condiments
I raised this issue myself not too many months ago. With similar concerns. I use stamps from multiple companies on my cards.
People suggested things like including the credit on a slip of paper with the card. Or ignoring it, because it was ridiculous and it was unlikely you'd ever get found out. Lots of suggestions on how to either get around it and reasons why it shouldn't be the way it is.
But I called several of the companies to check to see if what they said in their policies is what they mean, and found that they do mean what they say. And can take legal action.
Hero Arts, for instance, allows you to sell a total of 50 stamped images. That's 50 times that you use any single stamp on a card you sell TOTAL, for the entire time you own the stamp. And they mean it.
Likewise, when a company says they want credit on the card, that's what they want. Some companies will say "where possible" but not all. Some, like SU want you to use their copyright stamp.
What theses companies (and it's not all companies by any means, some angel policies are extremely open and lenient) are trying to prevent is someone setting up a cottage industry, creating hundreds of cards using their stamps.
I get that. I also get what many people have said, which is "How will they ever know if I sell a few cards at some craft fair or an Etsy store?" Chances are they won't. But if I were to put my cards in the local consignment and gift store without proper credits, I have no idea who might buy them, and who they might be affiliated with. What if it's an SU demo down here on holiday, just for a pretty obvious example? Finding a legal requirement absurd is not a valid defense in any court. My advice is this: If you want to sell your cards, use stamps that allow for use without credit, or put the credits on the card as stated. Why risk the possibility of a problem?
I agree with Emily. I don't think this is anything that a court battle would change. Companies are allowed to make their own policies, and you can choose not to buy from that company if you don't like it. People could bombard the companies who hold these policies with complaints and boycott their products. But I doubt that would actually do anything, either. There are too few people who sell their cards. If the majority of stampers did, maybe. But the majority of us don't.
I don't like strict angel policies any more than anyone else. But I like far less the idea of not being compliant and risking any aggravation. And a company can choose to make lots of aggravation if they want to.
__________________ I have come to the conclusion that buying craft supplies and actually using them are two separate hobbies. RachelRose Designs by Robin... GALLERY
Last edited by Rachelrose; 06-19-2014 at 07:33 AM..
It all has to due with Art/Image copyright. This is completely different from a guitar.There is a Ton of info on Goggle on Art/Image copyright.
Guitar making music is totally different than someone reproducing a Von Gogh painting and selling it as their own,and making money off it.
Oh I know - that is why I said my answer was cheeky.
"Pop art" type copying of an original copyrighted image isn't copying or there would be no Andy Warhol art.
This really is about using the stamped image to create. And yes, the industry has more lawyers than an individual crafter and will always suppress freedom.
And the reason for the limited use is because they want you to buy the product again. Greed, not image protection. But yes, I agree I was being cheeky and most of the time a crafter will get a cease and desist smack on the hand.
__________________ The quickest way for a parent to get a child's attention is to sit down and look comfortable. Practice safe eating always use condiments
If the rubber stamp is protected under copyright law -- most are not, by the way -- you'll need permission from the copyright owner if you want to reproduce it in your trademark. The reason most stamps are not protected is that they consist of: (1) imagery published before 1923, (2) simple shapes or "generic" imagery, or (3) short phrases or single words. So like so many confusing things in copyright law, some rubber stamps meet the standard and some don't. You'll need to make your own analysis and our favorite choice for guidance would be Steve Fishman's Public Domain book (it walks you through the analysis and provides checklists).
It goes on to discuss licenses too.
I think it is important to respect original individual artwork. When companies mass produce that work for crafters it all goes fuzzy. The company itself have made it unoriginal - there are thousands of stamps with that image etc. Additionally the use of other materials to print and paint stamps makes each image stamped unique and an original creation in its own right.
But this answer relates to the question about the use of an image in a trademark. That is a completely different issue from the use of stamped images in cards for sale. I'm only pointing this out so that the two don't get confused.
__________________ I have come to the conclusion that buying craft supplies and actually using them are two separate hobbies. RachelRose Designs by Robin... GALLERY
The explanation however lists why most stamps are not copyright protected
Quote:
The reason most stamps are not protected is that they consist of: (1) imagery published before 1923, (2) simple shapes or "generic" imagery, or (3) short phrases or single words. So like so many confusing things in copyright law, some rubber stamps meet the standard and some don't.
and does say about getting permission to use as part of trademark. Both issues are covered.
I know my first answer was cheeky. Apologies if my cheekiness caused any distress. I do think it is important to have all the copyright information as a crafter so you know when you are being bullied and when a company has a legitimate issue.
To be honest, if I were going to sell I would database my stamp sets in either Evernote, Excel, Access etc. and then import them into a document to print on the back of a cardbase. That way you only have to "write" them out once. If a stamp company requires a certain stamp then again I would stamp that and upload it with the stamp name or put it with my ready to use supplies. (Isn't it funny how many stamp companies have limited use on stamps except for that copyright stamp!!!)
That would mean that I would make card fronts and adhere them to a base, even if it is a "one layer" card.
Last edited by RiverIsis; 06-20-2014 at 06:16 AM..
I understand and support the right of a stamp designer or manufacturer to limit the use of the image for commercial purposes. I get the legalities and the morality. You created the design and went through the expense of marketing. You have the right to limit its use, although it seems kind of silly to me. Then again, I don't sell stamp designs so I just don't understand.
Here's a thought for stamp companies. Why not sell two versions? One for commercial use and one for personal use. The commercial one has a tiny credit on it. And it costs more. Personal use set is $15. Commercial is $100.
Hey, can I patent this idea??
(NO)
__________________ Dear Paperlicious is my blog...with a series on how I'm learning to improve my cardmaking by studying others.
I see what you are saying, Joan, but as someone who has never sold her cards yet wouldn't rule out the possibility of someday doing so, and who, if she were to sell her cards, would be doing it in a very small way - just putting them in a local gift shop or putting a box on a friend's table at a local art fair - having to buy very expensive commercial sets would not be my preference. And I don't think I'd want a copyright mark on my stamps, however tiny. Mary Englebright stamps have them and I hate the way it looks. If I don't want my card back filled with a long list of credits, I really don't want my card front littered with multiple copyright marks.
I can't see any way around restriction of use policies, however much I don't like them. Some of these companies could lighten them up a little, though. Not limit number of uses. Not require a special stamp. Then people would be able to just come up with their own reasonable way of placing the credits on the back.
In truth, many companies really only say "please give credit where possible." Which pretty much makes leaving the credit off legally okay. For those companies that do want credit, though, and don't give you that loophole, then I'd rather just get it on the back somewhere in the least obtrusive way. Type it all in small type onto a clear address label and stick it on.
Funny - I have been on several threads on this subject and no one who DOES sell their cards has ever weighed in. Is that because there are so few people who do, or because those people are mainly ignoring the policies and feel it would be dangerous to publicize that?
__________________ I have come to the conclusion that buying craft supplies and actually using them are two separate hobbies. RachelRose Designs by Robin... GALLERY
Have to say they must be making a huge profit on the use thing. Because I know I haven't used many of my stamps once let alone 60+ times.
I think you are on to something Robin on why people are weighing in. I also think that it is up to the company to make you aware of their usage policies when you buy the stamps. Not on some random page on their site but right there on the package that you take up to the till to buy or in the write up before you hit the buy button on the internet.
If I made a dress that was only to be worn at a wedding, I would put that in my selling information not go after someone after they have already worn it to the prom. Seems to borderline on a bait and switch technique. If you have stipulations on how something is to be used then you should be upfront about it.
Last edited by RiverIsis; 06-21-2014 at 07:44 AM..
Wow, thanks for all the replies! This is a bit daunting now. I'm surprised that I can only use Hero Arts 50 times TOTAL! I use a lot of their sentiments in conjunction with other stamp companies too! There will definitely be some companies I will not purchase from here on in. So if Stampin Up! requires their copyright stamp on the cards, I would have to provide additional stickies with other companies I used on the card? I am also shocked that the people that are selling on Etsy currently have nothing to comment on here. I think a good experiment is to try and buy a few cards from Etsians and see who has credited and who has not. This has definitely discourage me a little from selling cards that I make.
If you do buy any cards from Etsy, post what you find out. You certainly don't have to give names, just let us know whether you saw credits on cards or not. If you wouldn't mind. I am really curious.
__________________ I have come to the conclusion that buying craft supplies and actually using them are two separate hobbies. RachelRose Designs by Robin... GALLERY
AND the crazy thing about it is that the people who care what stamp it is probably are NOT the people who buy a hand stamped card/art piece. And if they did care they would contact the seller for that information or do an internet search. I doubt any of them assume that the creator of the card created the stamp too.
I sell my cards on Etsy, so I will weigh in on this.
Almost all my cards use Stampin' Up! stamps, so I use a copyright stamp on the back of my cards. I did have someone convo me on Etsy and asked if the backs of my cards were stamped, as she preferred to buy cards without anything on the back. I thought that was odd because the only reason I could see for doing that would be so you could put your own stamp on the back and pretend you made it yourself. At any rate, it would not be legal under the angel policy.
I don't see how anyone could check how many of a single image you sold, but my understanding is that angel policies stipulate this because they don't want the images from their rubber stamps scanned and used to print cards in large quantities. They also don't want you to mass produce cards and so they limit you to 50.
Personally, I'd probably never make 50 cards from one image anyway, because there are so many stamps that I haven't gotten around to using yet, that it seems to me that I can spread the love around enough that I could make plenty of cards without ever using one image more than 50 times for the companies that have that restriction.
As far as most stamps not being protected because their imagery is public domain, i.e. released before 1925, that would be true for a limited amount of vintage-type stamps sold by companies who tend to sell unmounted rubber, but not for something that was drawn by a still-living artist and sold by a company who paid for that artwork.
I have started putting the copyright information in the listings for the cards I sell, but I haven't gotten to them all yet. I do put the information on the back of the card, but then I don't mix companies much so listing them all on the back of the card doesn't take up much room.
That being said, you would probably have to be a pretty flagrant offender for a company to go after you. Etsy has literally thousands of shops selling handmade cards and policing all of that would take more personnel that most companies would have, and they would have to weight the cost of pursuing legal action along with the negative publicity they would get in the papercrafting community for doing so.
And I do get more than $4 per card on Etsy. People are shopping on Etsy because they are looking for something unique and handmade, so why charge bargain basement prices? My cards are priced from $4.95 for simpler ones to $6.95 for the more elaborate ones. I charged $10 each for some custom order cards I made recently because of the amount of work the buyer wanted on each one, and she did not have a problem paying that. From what I've read in Etsy's forums, charging too little can actually hurt your sales because people assume that your work must not be very good if you are charging less than what they would pay for a mass-produced item. I figure if someone wants a bargain, they can go to a dollar store to get a card. If they want something unique, they can pay a higher price (and they do!)
If I were to charge for the time I spent making them, my prices would be much higher. As it is, I do make sales, and some of the cards that sell the quickest are the ones I charge the most for.
I did talk to an illustrator on Etsy who was selling a few rubber stamps in her shop along with her illustration work. She had no angel policy posted, and I admit I was curious what she allowed people to do with her stamps. She said I would have to give her credit in the listing (which I had offered to do and would be happy to) and that I couldn't mass produce them, but she didn't say anything about putting the information on the back of the cards I made for sale, so it can vary depending on the company.
And now for my next mini-rant on this. Why aren't companies supplying a copyright stamp as part of the set? Most of my sets have enough "void" space that a small stamp with the copyright/manufacturer/stampname could be included in a small font, and let's be honest we don't want a huge font. Seriously, if it is part of the set I would think, "Oh, I bet I'm supposed to use this if I sell cards etc". The current policy seems to be to make it as difficult as possible to adhere to the Angel Policy and then say "gotcha".
And now for my next mini-rant on this. Why aren't companies supplying a copyright stamp as part of the set? Most of my sets have enough "void" space that a small stamp with the copyright/manufacturer/stampname could be included in a small font, and let's be honest we don't want a huge font. Seriously, if it is part of the set I would think, "Oh, I bet I'm supposed to use this if I sell cards etc". The current policy seems to be to make it as difficult as possible to adhere to the Angel Policy and then say "gotcha".
The Cat's Pajamas, Flourishes, and Sweet 'n Sassy Stamps do include a tiny copyright stamp (on at least some of their sets), but I've never seen one anywhere else...
The Cat's Pajamas, Flourishes, and Sweet 'n Sassy Stamps do include a tiny copyright stamp (on at least some of their sets), but I've never seen one anywhere else...
Some of my Stampendous have small stamps with them too and I think it is the perfect answer. I know a lot of people divide their stamps to store into categories but they would just have a copyright category.
I still think the onus is on the company to do more than have a random page up on the internet as an afterthought or provide another stamp you can buy, if they are serious about their copyright they should behave professionally about it at point of sale instead of bullying after the fact.
It's called "creatively yours" and it's on page 111 HTH
Thank you.
All I could originally find (and I was searching under "copyright") on the SU! store site was the MDS digital brush version which said "All Stampin' Up! images are copyrighted."--quite a bit to put on the back of a card.
__________________ Brenda
<-My sibling kitties, Milo and Rousseau
And now for my next mini-rant on this. Why aren't companies supplying a copyright stamp as part of the set? Most of my sets have enough "void" space that a small stamp with the copyright/manufacturer/stampname could be included in a small font, and let's be honest we don't want a huge font. Seriously, if it is part of the set I would think, "Oh, I bet I'm supposed to use this if I sell cards etc". The current policy seems to be to make it as difficult as possible to adhere to the Angel Policy and then say "gotcha".
I have some sets from the old Cornish Heritage Farms - one of their Elvis sets, and a couple from their Saturday Evening Post line - and those all include a small copyright/license stamp to use when you use the stamps. I thought it was brilliant at the time.
Stamped Cards for Sale + Giving Credits
