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Just wondering - has anyone ever got in "trouble" by selling a stamped item and did NOT give credit to the stamp company.
I probably should not admit this, but I rarely give credit to the companies. I have a lot of unounted stamps and I have no idea who made them. When I buy at conventions a lot of time there is no way to tell the mfg. as their and receipts do not have any identifying info. However, if a card is made with only SU! then I'll use one of my "made by" stamps that has the SU! copywright. But sometimes a card may have 4-5 different companies and I won't list all of them.
I figure that a stamp is designed to be stamped so I'm using as designed. If I don't machine reproduce the stamp or try to copy the design to make my own stamp them I'm still using the stamp as designed. Also I do not buy from companies that do not allow you to use their image on items you plan to sell.
I can't think of any other item where you have to give credit to the mfg. by using their product as designed. I wonder how this started? What do you do? have you ever been contacted by a stamp mfg. for not givinig them credit?
I guess I may be banned from buying stamps for admitting what I've been doing but at least I'm not selling a ton of cards.
I always scribble the manufacturers names on the back. I think reason this is mandated is because unlike most conventional products for use, some people may not realize it is a stamped image not your own drawing.
As I mentioned on another thread, rubber stamps are NOT the only thing with restrictions like this...it's just like with any licensed image/product.
Take NFL logos, for example. If you copied the Seattle Seahawks logo and started selling embroidered sweatshirts, you will get in trouble if you haven't gotten permission, right? Because the NFL and/or the Seahawks own the image and they get to license how it is used, and especially want to be involved when money is being made, lol!
Fabric...start selling adorable children's clothing made with Disney characters or some similar licensed images...at some point the company is going to demand that you cease and desist. You may have bought the fabric, but you didn't purchase the right to make money from it, lol...
It's a matter of copyright and it applies to any number of things, not just rubberstamping. It definitely can be frustrating, trying to decipher what's kosher and what's not. Some companies make it easy for you, lol, others not so much.
As I mentioned on another thread, rubber stamps are NOT the only thing with restrictions like this...it's just like with any licensed image/product.
Take NFL logos, for example. If you copied the Seattle Seahawks logo and started selling embroidered sweatshirts, you will get in trouble if you haven't gotten permission, right? Because the NFL and/or the Seahawks own the image and they get to license how it is used, and especially want to be involved when money is being made, lol!
Fabric...start selling adorable children's clothing made with Disney characters or some similar licensed images...at some point the company is going to demand that you cease and desist. You may have bought the fabric, but you didn't purchase the right to make money from it, lol...
It's a matter of copyright and it applies to any number of things, not just rubberstamping. It definitely can be frustrating, trying to decipher what's kosher and what's not. Some companies make it easy for you, lol, others not so much.
Yes and No -
If you copied it then you are in breach of copyright - as in the Seattle Seahawks - however if they sell you say a sticker and you put it on a card and sell the card you have not altered the image which is their concern, you have not misrepresented it, and as long as you haven't used it with "adult" content then they have by giving you the sticker to use given tacit agreement that you will use it - stick it on something - in some way. Rubber stamping would be similar to this.
That said, however, most companies such as Disney have more money behind them than a single artist/hobbyist who is selling their creations. Therefore the companies WILL win because they have the money to stay in the legal fight longer.
I personally like the MSE alpha that I just bought that had a copyright stamp on the alpha - they are an Angel company but ask you to have permission in writing. Fair enough in my book.
Also note that when you purchase a rubber stamp, you are not purchasing the image itself but a limited liscense to use the image to create personal artwork.
It is up to the company to decide what you can use the image for - whether to sell projects created with it or not.
I would never sell a project that didn't follow the Angel Policies of a company - and If I don't know who produced the stamp, then I wouldn't use it on the project. JMO
What about DP? I believe someone once told me that some DP and possibly some cardstock is also protected. Anyone know if this is true? What about things like hodgepodge hardware or fancy ribbons and ohter embellishments?
I don't sell so this doesn't affect me directly, but it is interesting.
What about DP? I believe someone once told me that some DP and possibly some cardstock is also protected. Anyone know if this is true? What about things like hodgepodge hardware or fancy ribbons and ohter embellishments?
I don't sell so this doesn't affect me directly, but it is interesting.
Are you like me, thinking that some cards would have a list on the back as long as your arm - also what about glues/adhesives:p you may not see them and they may not have a copyright but if you are listing everyone else I dont see why they should miss out.;)
Are you like me, thinking that some cards would have a list on the back as long as your arm - also what about glues/adhesives:p you may not see them and they may not have a copyright but if you are listing everyone else I dont see why they should miss out.;)
I've been interested to see what direction the comments would go because to me the stamps are made to be used just like all the other products. I can totally agree on mass production or copying something without actually purchasing the product. I've never looked at all the embellsihments but I bet there are copyrights on several of the products. I'll have to make a card for the card!
This could get really crazy because think of the classes we've taken where all the supplies are provided which, inlcuded a stamp. The instructors are no longer using the stamps for "personal" use. What's the difference between using the stamps to make money in a class and using a stamp to make money by selling the card. What about the paper?
well with ribbon, cardstock, paper, and accessories, you're aren't getting a license to recreate the image - you have purchased the actual product. So when you own the actual product (instead of a license) then you wouldn't need the copyright on the back.
But, wouldn't the use of DP be like using fabric? Someone posted that you can't buy fabric with Disney etc and make clothing for sale with it. Wouldn't it be the same thing? You have purchased the fabric/you have purchased the paper.
I know before SU changed their Angel Policy that several EBAY sellers had listings that were removed and they were warned for selling the stamped images of several SU retired sets.I also know some who were selling cards also that had listings removed as SU did not like that back then. You could stamp and GIVE the images/cards away but you could not profit from them. SU contacted Ebay about the auctions & they all got removed immediately.
At least now SU is letting cards be sold with the proper credit.
I do not mind that the creators of stamp images want the credit for it. They should get the credit. I just put it on the back the makers of the stamps. I have had no complaints about them being there.
Last edited by meluvstampin; 04-08-2008 at 02:45 PM..
If you copied it then you are in breach of copyright - as in the Seattle Seahawks - however if they sell you say a sticker and you put it on a card and sell the card you have not altered the image which is their concern, you have not misrepresented it, and as long as you haven't used it with "adult" content then they have by giving you the sticker to use given tacit agreement that you will use it - stick it on something - in some way. Rubber stamping would be similar to this.
That said, however, most companies such as Disney have more money behind them than a single artist/hobbyist who is selling their creations. Therefore the companies WILL win because they have the money to stay in the legal fight longer.
I personally like the MSE alpha that I just bought that had a copyright stamp on the alpha - they are an Angel company but ask you to have permission in writing. Fair enough in my book.
No, not quite the same...if you take the sticker you bought and used it to create a value-added item such as a card, you have no more sticker, right? You re-sold it, or gifted it, or whatever. It would only be similar to rubberstamping if you printed up copies of the sticker to put on something, say a tee shirt or a mug.
Following your sticker analogy, if I bought a Seattle Seahawks rubber stamp (I know...not freakin' likely :rolleyes: ) to make souvenir booklets to sell, that would violate the policy. But, say I make up a gift basket for an out of town visitor, which included Seahawk memorabilia AND that rubber stamp, that doesn't violate anything...I can sell the entire stamp if I want, just not reproduce those images for resale.
I don't entirely disagree that we "should" be able to use our stamps just like any other tool we purchase. Stanley doesn't sell a hammer with the proviso that it can't be used as a rental, do they? I can do whatever I want with it.
I am just saying, like it or not, this is the way of copyright laws. Many companies wouldn't waste their time policing it. Some companies, however, pursue with a vengeance because they don't want their rights watered down over time. It's easier just to start off with companies' products that encourage free enterprise, lol.
But, wouldn't the use of DP be like using fabric? Someone posted that you can't buy fabric with Disney etc and make clothing for sale with it. Wouldn't it be the same thing? You have purchased the fabric/you have purchased the paper.
Only if the paper designers have copyrighted the images in the paper. So I would say that you will come across both kinds of paper...some that are copyrighted and some that are not. Some will be obvious...take Disney again. When you go down to Michaels and purchase some of their Mickey Mouse scrapbook paper, or a sheet of provocraft stickers (oh, no....don't GET me started on Provocraft, lol!), clearly the Disney images are licensed images with limited permission for use. Who doesn't recognize Disney characters, after all?
You just need to be vigilent, I'm afraid. Look for copyright symbols on the paper, as a start.
Oh dont get me wrong - I get the protection of image - AND I don't sell my stuff - however the argument of intent of usage is still there as it is not printed on the product itself. It is very messy area where the legal cases are settled not won by those with the larger legal muscle.
The irony is that if you showed a card sketch and the products you would use to create a card and it was commissioned for you to create it; you are probably completely within the law of copyright to do so for an exchange of money. You just have to love all the red tape of the law!
I knew there was a reason I don't sell my creations. (Other than the obvious that they aren't that good!) Wow! There is alot you need to know before you start this!! With SU new policy, it seems easiest to just use their products alone so you don't have to worry!!
I remember several years ago, I bid on a telephone that had a college logo on it and rang with the fight song. I received an e-mail from Ebay saying that I could cancel the transaction and would not be liable for payment. I had already paid and received the phone, so didn't pay much attention to it. I wonder now if the sellers did not have the proper licensing!
I went out to the Library of Congress and did a little searching for who does/does not have a copyright on file. I found some of the major stamp companies (SU!, Hero Arts, etc.) but there a lot of the companies do not have a copyright on file by their company name. I also found some of the artists. hmmm
I keep a file of angel policies and I wanted to update my files for some of the new companies. A lot of the new companies do not provide any information on line regarding their angel policy or copyright information. Another hmmmmmmm
This whole ball of wax is a bit much. I do agree that the artists or designers should get their fair share - the next thing we know they will want a portion of the proceeds like residuals for musicians and actors or software licenses - I really think its wrong that if I want to have a copy of music on my PC and MP3 player that to stay within the law I have to buy 2 copies of the CD. Yeesh!
I thought the music thing was settled years ago? A court ruled that music or movies purchased legally once could be copied for personal use? Like for backup or in another format? Has that changed?
As for "This whole ball of wax is a bit much," lol, I have to agree!
Last year I decided to write an article on copyright law and the stamper and solicited a bunch of really good questions from you guys! I work on the article off and on but what keeps me from finishing it is that I haven't been able to find good answers to some of the tougher questions -- like using patterned paper to make things for sale. I even spoke with an intellectual property lawyer and didn't get a clear answer!
__________________ Dear Paperlicious is my blog...with a series on how I'm learning to improve my cardmaking by studying others.
I thought the music thing was settled years ago? A court ruled that music or movies purchased legally once could be copied for personal use? Like for backup or in another format? Has that changed?
As for "This whole ball of wax is a bit much," lol, I have to agree!
The music thing is back because of iPods and MP3 players and the whole download thing. From what I gather its about being able to just load your music that you purchased to one device and not burn it to a CD.
Anywho, back to stamp credits - ouch even a lawyer can't help - wow!
Do the credits have to be attached to the card or item? Could one print a list of the companies to include with the item when sold? I was thinking of a making a checklist of the stamp companies I have and then checking off the ones that were used with the card. The list could be included with the sold card. I wonder if that would work?
I can't think of any other item where you have to give credit to the mfg. by using their product as designed. I wonder how this started? What do you do? have you ever been contacted by a stamp mfg. for not givinig them credit?
Its actually very similar and more with machine embroidery designs.. the difference being its on fabric with thread, instead of paper and ink, but same idea. Permission has to be obtained or the individual designer's policy adhered to. With machine embroidery you also have to adhere to copywrite (copyright?) policy on not sharing the 'actual' design, which is a computer program of sorts. You cannot purchase the design file and forward it to or copy it for fellow embroiderers or copy CD's of designs and give away. You can only give away or sell your CDs or design cards if you erase any copies from your computer and obviously there is no resale on downloaded designs. At least with rubberstamps, you can resell your stamps when you don't need/want them anymore or you can share images. You can't share embroidery files, only the actual sewn out images. Ebay is full of illegal machine embroidery file selling.
I'm sure this issue comes up in various forms all the time, depending upon the media or craft. With rubberstamping, I have to think it is better for the company if they are angel companies, as it promotes their product.
__________________ Cindy blog,
Design Team for Provo Craft Cricut Circle
Last year I decided to write an article on copyright law and the stamper and solicited a bunch of really good questions from you guys! I work on the article off and on but what keeps me from finishing it is that I haven't been able to find good answers to some of the tougher questions -- like using patterned paper to make things for sale. I even spoke with an intellectual property lawyer and didn't get a clear answer!
Well that pretty much answers it for me - its muddied area and if lawyers can't make sense of it then basically the companies are impossing their thoughts on the matter as "law":rolleyes:
BTW if you ever manage to do more with your article I would love to read it AND could you find out about my query about using "a card sketch and listing/showing the products to be used to create a card" scenario... OR showing a very similar card to the one that you are selling.
I bet the companies that "enforce" this are also in some sort of breach by not providing this information to the purchaser at the point of purchase. Could you imagine this on a larger scale such as buying a car and then being told what you could and couldn't do with it AFTER you bought it :rolleyes:
I know this isn't the correct thread, but wondered if anyone knew of a thread where one could find out what a stamped image is, the name of the stamp and co. I rec'd in a swap a little boy standing in front of the bathroom door with his puppy and the little boy obviously needs to potty NOW, and I'd like to know the name of the stamp. Thanks to anyone who can direct me.
I know this isn't the correct thread, but wondered if anyone knew of a thread where one could find out what a stamped image is, the name of the stamp and co. I rec'd in a swap a little boy standing in front of the bathroom door with his puppy and the little boy obviously needs to potty NOW, and I'd like to know the name of the stamp. Thanks to anyone who can direct me.
I would start a new thread asking your question. If someone knows it they will answer.
I know this isn't the correct thread, but wondered if anyone knew of a thread where one could find out what a stamped image is, the name of the stamp and co. I rec'd in a swap a little boy standing in front of the bathroom door with his puppy and the little boy obviously needs to potty NOW, and I'd like to know the name of the stamp. Thanks to anyone who can direct me.
Also note that when you purchase a rubber stamp, you are not purchasing the image itself but a limited liscense to use the image to create personal artwork.
It is up to the company to decide what you can use the image for - whether to sell projects created with it or not.
I would never sell a project that didn't follow the Angel Policies of a company - and If I don't know who produced the stamp, then I wouldn't use it on the project. JMO
I am with you on that Kurtis
__________________ Daughter of a King My Blog
Rebekka
How about stamp companies that have gone out of business? Are their stamp images not available to use? (You can't even ask them.) I believe you can PAY for a Registered copyright (R with little circle), but anything once published is copyrighted. How long is a copyright good for?
Copyright is automatic upon creation of a work in fixed form. Registration of a copyright is not required (although I think it is a prerequisite to litigation for damages.) And just because a company is out of business doesn't mean someone doesn't still hold the copyright-- I suspect many companies license work from artists, and the artist may hold the original copyright.
How long does a copyright last?
The term of copyright for a particular work depends on several factors, including whether it has been published, and, if so, the date of first publication. As a general rule, for works created after January 1, 1978, copyright protection lasts for the life of the author plus an additional 70 years. For an anonymous work, a pseudonymous work, or a work made for hire, the copyright endures for a term of 95 years from the year of its first publication or a term of 120 years from the year of its creation, whichever expires first. For works first published prior to 1978, the term will vary depending on several factors. To determine the length of copyright protection for a particular work, consult chapter 3 of the Copyright Act (title 17 of the United States Code). More information on the term of copyright can be found in Circular 15a, Duration of Copyright, and Circular 1, Copyright Basics.
Do I have to renew my copyright?
No. Works created on or after January 1, 1978, are not subject to renewal registration. As to works published or registered prior to January 1, 1978, renewal registration is optional after 28 years but does provide certain legal advantages. For information on how to file a renewal application as well as the legal benefit for doing so, see Circular 15, Renewal of Copyright, and Circular 15a, Duration of Copyright.
Copyright laws are a confusing mess so I avoid the issues by not selling cards. I finish needlework projects for customers occasionally, but I'm charging them for my time/labor-and at a fairly cheap rate.
Yes-- confusing--especially when the Artist is unknown and the company that sold them is no longer in business. Since I'm wanting images of building and other architectural things, I guess I could make my own stamps.
I wonder if you document your search and maybe have the document notarized whether that would be sufficient protection if any case were brought. TBH it seems most artwork related to craft do a lot of posturing and tell you to take the rest of your product using their product off the market. It could be worth the risk to continue in good faith.
well with ribbon, cardstock, paper, and accessories, you're aren't getting a license to recreate the image - you have purchased the actual product. So when you own the actual product (instead of a license) then you wouldn't need the copyright on the back.
How would this be different from selling items made with fabric you've bought as given in an earlier post? Disney was the example given, and I feel sure that they would go after anyone who sold products made out of fabric with Disney characters. Copyright is mighty murky territory indeed.
Dea
Interesting that this thread resurfaced - I recently posted a thread asking how people did their credits on their cards. Not too many people answered, which made me think either few people sell their cards or lots of people don't do credits and don't want to say so ;-)!
I also recently compiled the angel policies for every company whose stamps I own. And I called a couple to double check. (Yes, Hero Arts really means that you can only use one of their stamps a total of 50 times on cards you sell. That's 50 times for the entire time you own the stamp, not 50 times per year.)
I have never yet sold any of my cards, but I was curious. And really, if I ever decided to it would be a nightmare, listing so many credits on one card (I mix and match so much between companies). And it would look ugly. Plus, in several cases I would have to buy an official credit stamp (like SU insists you do).
Someone on my thread suggested I could put the credits on the plastic sleeve the card is sold in. Great idea, but I checked and it isn't considered the same as putting it on the card.
I have concluded that most companies are very fearful that people will start cottage industries, with tables full of minimum wage workers putting together hundreds of cards of a single design for widespread sale. Thus, the stringent angel policies.
It's kind of annoying. Yes, I love making cards and giving them to those I love, but this is one expensive hobby. It would be nice if it were easier to make a few bucks back.
__________________ I have come to the conclusion that buying craft supplies and actually using them are two separate hobbies. RachelRose Designs by Robin... GALLERY
How would this be different from selling items made with fabric you've bought as given in an earlier post? Disney was the example given, and I feel sure that they would go after anyone who sold products made out of fabric with Disney characters. Copyright is mighty murky territory indeed.
Dea
You are allowed to sell items you make with fabric (or patterned paper). For example, you can buy some disney fabric and make a shirt, and then sell the shirt. You are not recreating the images on the fabric, but creating a new item with the fabric. As long as you don't advertise that it is a "Disney" product. You can advertise it as a "Shirt made with Disney Fabric", but not a "Disney Shirt". It gets even more complicated with all the different people from different countries and different copyright laws using the same products. What is allowable in one country may not be so in another country.
I don't sell that many cards anymore, but I when I did, I wouldn't use stamps (or very rarely did) that required me to put their information on my products (and when I did it was very small - just legible). To me it was like giving the stamp company free advertising on my hard work. I don't buy a lot of stamps that have screwy angel policies either - unless its an image I absolutely have to have, but that doesn't happen very often since I like to keep my options open.
Stamp Credit - Angel Policy
