Splitcoaststampers.com - the world's #1 papercrafting community
You're currently viewing Splitcoaststampers as a GUEST. We pride ourselves on being great hosts, but guests have limited access to some of our incredible artwork, our lively forums and other super cool features of the site! You can join our incredible papercrafting community at NO COST. So what are you waiting for?
I was browsing around someone's store where they sell their handmade cards. I know this person from another board. I noticed a card that I had seen in a magazine (created by a well know designer) and a card that looked pretty much exactly like one of mine (and this wasn't even one of my cards I like very much! ). I'm not saying mine had to have been a lift, but it was pretty much identical down to the colors and the way the ribbon was tied. But I know the other one was. This bothered me at first. I know once you post online or submit to a magazine, you really don't have control over it anymore and I'm okay with that. It just bothers me a little that someone thinks it's okay to profit from someone else's idea. Also, this person is a great cardmaker in her own right so I don't understand why the lifts in the first place. Anyway, would it bother you if you saw someone selling a lift of your card or one you recognize from a magazine?
I guess if I was making cards for the sole purpose of selling them and making money, it might. I make cards for fun. It is my therapy now that I am a SAHM!! I honestly would be pretty flattered if someone thought my idea was good enough to replicate and sell It is not as if you can "patent" a card, so I think that once you share something with the world, it is fair game. I do think it is nice to let people know if you CASE'd. I have done this before and always give credit, where credit is due!
CASEs don't bother me in the least and I love it if someone says they want to CASE my card. I think it is just the selling part that annoys me a little.
I had someone case one of my own creations and sell to a client as a shower card. She gave me credit when she posted the card and I was so flattered and excited that someone thought one of MY cards was good enough to sell I was flying high all day!!! It was an honor!
__________________ Amy Stampin' Up Demonstrator My Gallery
Okay, maybe the difference really is that you were given credit for the original idea.
I don't want anyone to think I'm really upset about this either. It annoyed me a little at first, but it might be because it was unexpected from this particular person.
I love CASEs and think they are a great way to grow as a cardmaker and agree that once it's out there, you have no control over it.
I am just curious about everyone's opinions about it.
I totally understand what you're saying, but there is a small chance that it's just a coincidence. I had just finished a card and then I received some swaps back in the mail. One of the participants (a friend of mine) made a card that looked so similiar in every way, it was freaky! Same set, embellishments, placement, everything.
It does happen. I'd give her the benefit of the doubt.
Actually, I think if she's selling that CASE'd card, then it is technically against copyright laws. Probably not worth pursuing, but a cease & desist letter from a lawyer friend would probably scare her straight. ;)
But I know what you mean, Niki, not a huge deal in the grand scheme of life, but a bit annoying nonetheless. Krystie makes a nice point, though, maybe its a big coincidence.
__________________ ~ Jennifer Ellefson Created From Paper, a paper crafting blog
I can see where it would bother you, but without really knowing the story, how do you know she lifted that particular card? maybe both of you saw an idea somewhere and took that idea and came up with something that ended up so similar in design
My card I am willing to give the benefit of doubt (though it was same stamps, same colors, ribbon tied the same way (I just mention this because I had cut slits in the cardstock to tie the ribbon around my image a certain way on a one layer card), same exact placement and design), but I know the other one was. It was created by Nichole Heady and appeared in one of the Paper Crafts issues.
It's so funny you said that Krystie. For one of the Hanna sneak peeks for a release, one of the other designers and I made cards that were so similar! I do agree it happens sometimes. Weird how two people can come up with the same thing!
Thanks, everyone, for sharing your opinions! I'm not going anywhere with this and don't plan on contacting the other person. Just wondering what others thought!
Might I ask in the grand scheme of things does it really matter....we all get inspiration from all sources - to me once someone posts their creation using stamps and materials that are accessible to everyone then it becomes free for others to use in their own personal crafting...for some that includes selling the cards and items they make.
Now that being said using someones idea down to the minute details and submitting them as your own to a contest or to be published as your own creative work is not kosher....
but putting in the work to make something similar to sell...I don't have a problem with that... I routinely take inspiration from the gallery here at SCS and through the swaps I do...I see something I like be it a layout or particular use of a stamp set I decide to make it...I usually follow the general layout and stamp placement but use the colors and stamp sets I have on hand...I always make cards in batches...and I sell them on occassion at craft fairs and to various friends and customers who want to buy them...I don't see anything wrong in that...
If people have a problem with someone CASEing thier cards and projects then simply don't share them on an open internet forum.
__________________ Jenni -Happy SU Demo - MY GALLERY & MY CHAOTIC LIFE One kid makes you a Parent - Two makes you a Referee
Actually, I think if she's selling that CASE'd card, then it is technically against copyright laws. Probably not worth pursuing, but a cease & desist letter from a lawyer friend would probably scare her straight. ;)
But I know what you mean, Niki, not a huge deal in the grand scheme of life, but a bit annoying nonetheless. Krystie makes a nice point, though, maybe its a big coincidence.
I found this statement interesting. Who's copyright laws are you referring to? The person who created the card or the stamp set they used. To me it would seem that we (the hobby artist) technically don't have any copyright laws with the creations that we make and post online. I do think that we should respect the person who created that card and tweek it to be our own if we are going to sell it. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your statement.
Art is intended to provoke an emotion from a total stranger. If you�ve succeeded in this, consider yourself an artist. Paper Shanks Blog. Love me or hate me, you are still talking about me
I doubt I'd ever be in this situation...lol... however, it probably would bug me a bit to start. Then I'd probably end up being pretty flattered that someone I considered to be a great card designer would want to copy one of my cards
I found this statement interesting. Who's copyright laws are you referring to? The person who created the card or the stamp set they used. To me it would seem that we (the hobby artist) technically don't have any copyright laws with the creations that we make and post online. I do think that we should respect the person who created that card and tweek it to be our own if we are going to sell it. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your statement.
In the UK our cards are protected by copyright law. I can't imagine it's different in the US or Canada as all three countries are a part of International Copyright Agreements.
When we design & create a card, if someone blatantly copies the design and offers it as their own, a copyright infringment case can be pursued if we wish. It probably isn't always worth it, especially if they haven't gained financially from it. But we do have the choice. : )
It is just my opinion that if you post something on a website or especially get it published, that you have to expect things like this to happen. If you don't like like it, then I am afraid the only way to avoid it is to not publish it so everyone can see it and therefore "copy" or "case" it. Not sayin' it's wrong or right...just sayin'.
In the UK our cards are protected by copyright law. I can't imagine it's different in the US or Canada as all three countries are a part of International Copyright Agreements.
When we design & create a card, if someone blatantly copies the design and offers it as their own, a copyright infringment case can be pursued if we wish. It probably isn't always worth it, especially if they haven't gained financially from it. But we do have the choice. : )
Thanks for the explanation I didn't know that those laws existed for the lay hobbyist. I knew they existed for professional artists.
I would think that cards published in a magazine are meant to be copied. Why else do people buy stamping magazines? If people choose to sell them, I don't see the problem unless the stamp company doesn't allow it.
__________________ "Life is much too important to be taken seriously." Oscar Wilde Proud to be a member of Mo's Digital Pencil Challenge DT! My BlogMy Gallery
The mind can do funny things. I know that at times I am capable of forgetting an incredible amount of the information. I could easily imaging browsing through a magazine or gallery and then days later creating a card - intending to make it my own - yet, creating an exact duplicate of someone else's idea without realizing it.
I've also seen cases in which one person was incensed that her idea had been stolen, but others looking into it were able to clearly show that the "second" card must have been created earlier than the "first". I think that in the case of card crafting with so many of us using the same set of inks, stamps, layouts, and card size, it would be incredible difficult to prove that
a card was truly original.
That said, I'm also in agreement with Jenni - if it has been posted, I don't have any issue with it being copied.
__________________ Jennifer - member 8504
Fan Club member
Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent. Victor Hugo
Yes, honestly it would bother me if they were profiting from it.
When I taught classes at my LSS I had a couple of new people take my card class, a month or so later a new store opened up in a neighboring town, some of my friends/customers went and saw the cards from my classes hanging in the store. They asked the lady if she had made the display cards and she said yes, well technically she did make them but they were my ideas, etc. It did bother me a bit because she was profiting (in a way) from my hard work and ideas. I sort of laughed it off but some of my customers were so disgusted they never went back again.
It's one things to take someones idea or technique and make it your own by putting your own spin on it but to copy exactly and sell it with out giving credit, that doesn't seem right to me.
This is a sensitive topic indeed and just wanted to add my 2cents worth. There are many a times when I have a creative block and get inspired by cards in SCS gallery or a magazine, so I end up CASE'ing them or atleast getting an inspiration them as my final product might be different from the original card.
When I post my creation online, I always give credit for the card(s) that inspired me.
But If I happen to sell the same card to somebody - I do not sell it in stores but end up selling ocassionaly to my friends, family and co-workers, I never claim that it is my original design or anything. I just tell them that I made the card, which is the truth, but design was not mine. Apart from this I do not know how else I can give credit to the original design on a physical card. But I always recognize them online and give them credit.
Yes, honestly it would bother me if they were profiting from it.
When I taught classes at my LSS I had a couple of new people take my card class, a month or so later a new store opened up in a neighboring town, some of my friends/customers went and saw the cards from my classes hanging in the store. They asked the lady if she had made the display cards and she said yes, well technically she did make them but they were my ideas, etc. It did bother me a bit because she was profiting (in a way) from my hard work and ideas. I sort of laughed it off but some of my customers were so disgusted they never went back again.
It's one things to take someones idea or technique and make it your own by putting your own spin on it but to copy exactly and sell it with out giving credit, that doesn't seem right to me.
Well, this is just bad business. If she were smart she would have asked you to teach classes for her. She at least could have said she made them in a class she took.
So, please tell me, If I make a card that is not an exact CASE or replica of somebody's card but was inspired by them (I mean some aspect of the card was inspired by another card), would it be wrong of me to sell it? Not in a retail or a web store, but to a colleague or friend or family? I mean it is still selling.....
I am very troubled at this as some or other portion of my cards might be by inspiration - one or another.
I do not want to hurt anybody intentionally or unintentionally.
Inspired by is definitely different than exact copying. So, I would not worry at all if I were you. I think we all get ideas from each other and the inspiration can be as simple as cutting your cardstock a certain way or something. That is not taking someone's exact idea. It is just being inspired.
I know it is to be expected when you post things online. Thanks for all the great discussion, ladies!
I guess it comes down to the defination of what people think CASEing and lifting is...
if someone comes up with an idea for a "layout" is it theirs to keep and if someone else uses the same layout is it CASEing...some layouts are highly complex involving numerous layers and paper and accessories the chances of two people doing the exact same thing with the exact same sets, paper and embellishments are going to be slim...the simpler and more streamlined you go their is the greater of chances of 2 or more people doing pretty much the same card.
At what point do you consider a CASE - layout? layout & stamp set? layout, stamp set & paper?
For example there is a certain card design on SCS that was part of a featured stamper...the card is fairly simple and utilizes scraps for the bulk of the card...when I saw the fact you could do up most of the card and then have it suit all different occasions by swapping images and sentiment I thought what a great idea and made up a bunch of cards using my scraps of designer paper and a few different stamp sets and sentiments...I have in turn sold a number of sets to friends and customers - am I wrong in doing this...I fully agree it wasn't my orginal idea, nor do I "claim" it as an orginal idea of mine...the only thing I claim is my cards are handcrafted by me...same goes for projects...I do a lot of smaller gift items for craft fairs based on things I see at SCS - am I wrong for using an idea that someone else posted...how do you determine who "owns" the idea.
I'm not trying to be snarky...just trying to "discuss" further...
__________________ Jenni -Happy SU Demo - MY GALLERY & MY CHAOTIC LIFE One kid makes you a Parent - Two makes you a Referee
Jenni,
I would consider what you are doing more using the original card idea as inspiration in that you are changing the patterned paper, the stamps, etc. You are taking an idea and making it your own, which I agree is completely fine to do. It is not an exact replica of the original card. I'm not sure if that is considered a CASE or not because I have seen where CASE means exact replica and where it means just using parts of the card, like say the design/layout. Maybe someone else can clarify on the official definition of CASE. My original post was refering to an exact replica.
[
If people have a problem with someone CASEing thier cards and projects then simply don't share them on an open internet forum.[/QUOTE]
This is what I have always thought, I don't understand why anyone would care if their cards or projects are cased. Or sent into contests or whatever. I would be flattered that mine were good enough to copy! If I wanted them to be published under my name, I could of sent them in to the magazines.
I guess it comes down to the defination of what people think CASEing and lifting is...
if someone comes up with an idea for a "layout" is it theirs to keep and if someone else uses the same layout is it CASEing...some layouts are highly complex involving numerous layers and paper and accessories the chances of two people doing the exact same thing with the exact same sets, paper and embellishments are going to be slim...the simpler and more streamlined you go their is the greater of chances of 2 or more people doing pretty much the same card.
At what point do you consider a CASE - layout? layout & stamp set? layout, stamp set & paper?
For example there is a certain card design on SCS that was part of a featured stamper...the card is fairly simple and utilizes scraps for the bulk of the card...when I saw the fact you could do up most of the card and then have it suit all different occasions by swapping images and sentiment I thought what a great idea and made up a bunch of cards using my scraps of designer paper and a few different stamp sets and sentiments...I have in turn sold a number of sets to friends and customers - am I wrong in doing this...I fully agree it wasn't my orginal idea, nor do I "claim" it as an orginal idea of mine...the only thing I claim is my cards are handcrafted by me...same goes for projects...I do a lot of smaller gift items for craft fairs based on things I see at SCS - am I wrong for using an idea that someone else posted...how do you determine who "owns" the idea.
I'm not trying to be snarky...just trying to "discuss" further...
It's certainly a legitimate question.
Unfortunately, it's open to a lot of interpretation, none of which many can agree on.
By it's very definition, I would surmise that a CASEd work would be "a near or exact replica of an original".
__________________ Julie Ebersole (JulieHRR once upon a time . . . )julieebersole.com"So shines a good deed in a weary world." -Willy Wonka
If people have a problem with someone CASEing thier cards and projects then simply don't share them on an open internet forum.
This is what I have always thought, I don't understand why anyone would care if their cards or projects are cased. Or sent into contests or whatever. I would be flattered that mine were good enough to copy! If I wanted them to be published under my name, I could of sent them in to the magazines.
For the sake of lively discussion, I would venture to say that it is because we are each individuals, and being human, emotions and feelings about something as personal as the things we create can vary greatly from one individual to the next.
I guess what I try to keep in my own mind, is never to assume that what I am comfortable with, everyone else is, too, or should be.
__________________ Julie Ebersole (JulieHRR once upon a time . . . )julieebersole.com"So shines a good deed in a weary world." -Willy Wonka
I dont know much about copyrighting...but to have a copyright dont you have to file some kind of legal paper? Like I said..I dont know much about this stuff. It just seems anyone could claim someone stole something of theirs and it would be one word against another unless there was a copyright filed right? JMHO...
Blessings.
I dont know much about copyrighting...but to have a copyright dont you have to file some kind of legal paper? Like I said..I dont know much about this stuff. It just seems anyone could claim someone stole something of theirs and it would be one word against another unless there was a copyright filed right? JMHO...
Blessings.
Actually, the act of putting a card on a public website satisfies the law for copyright. If someone then made the same card and sold it, they WOULD be in violation of the copyright laws and would be susceptible to criminal prosecution.
Intellectual property laws are actually fairly simple. Any unique creation- a painting, a book, a poem, a CARD- belongs to the creator. If the creation is visual- like a card- then that image is copyrighted. All a person needs to do to copyright anything is simply to, in some way, make it public or process it through a public arena. Folks writing their first book can copyright it by dating their pages; another favorite method is to make a copy and mail it to themselves- processed through a government agency makes it copyrighted.
Large corporations with huge amounts of money at stake go through the "official" government copyright office, but individuals do NOT need to do this.
As for some of the cases mentioned above:
The OP does have a claim for copyright violation against the person selling copies of her cards.
The woman whose class cards were used in the store has a claim against the store owner.
As for the question of the images from the stamps, that depends on whether the stamp company has a published policy as an "angel company" and what the exact wording on that policy is. If the card seller is using cards without the proper angel policy in place, she is also in violation of copyright law for the maker of the stamps and is liable there also.
Now, before some start chiming in with "it's no big deal" etc, it IS a big deal.
The needlework industry has been devastated in the last 10 years by the effects of copyright violation. Many designers have been forced out of the business by people violating the copyrights to their patterns and the resulting loss of business. It was very hard at the beginning for those designers who foresaw the possible effects to convince others of the risks and the industry as a whole was very slow to make attempts to deal with the issue. Many lost jobs and lost businesses in the industry resulted from this delay. Others have been able to maintain their businesses but have seen drastic drops in income.
You can go on ebay at any time and find someone who will sell you a needlework chart of a Disney image, or a Warner Brother's image, or a chart made from a movie poster, etc. that they say is "computer-generated". Virtually all of these are illegal and are violations of copyright law.
The issue of intellectual property has permeated many businesses in the last 10-15 years with the easy ability to steal ideas on the Internet.
Finally, it is a matter of respect, or lack thereof. To steal intellectual property from someone else, and then claim or present it as your own is despicable- and illegal!
Now, the likelihood of someone being prosecuted for stealing a card design is small. However, many pattern stealers and reproducers are indeed finding themselves going through federal prosecutions for copyright violations, when they thought that "no one cares". People do care- and some DO prosecute.
In summary- anyone selling cards who is using someone else's design or using stamps without having the correct angel policy procedures in place, IS IN VIOLATION OF THE LAW.
Actually, the act of putting a card on a public website satisfies the law for copyright. If someone then made the same card and sold it, they WOULD be in violation of the copyright laws and would be susceptible to criminal prosecution.
Intellectual property laws are actually fairly simple. Any unique creation- a painting, a book, a poem, a CARD- belongs to the creator. If the creation is visual- like a card- then that image is copyrighted. All a person needs to do to copyright anything is simply to, in some way, make it public or process it through a public arena. Folks writing their first book can copyright it by dating their pages; another favorite method is to make a copy and mail it to themselves- processed through a government agency makes it copyrighted.
Large corporations with huge amounts of money at stake go through the "official" government copyright office, but individuals do NOT need to do this.
As for some of the cases mentioned above:
The OP does have a claim for copyright violation against the person selling copies of her cards.
The woman whose class cards were used in the store has a claim against the store owner.
As for the question of the images from the stamps, that depends on whether the stamp company has a published policy as an "angel company" and what the exact wording on that policy is. If the card seller is using cards without the proper angel policy in place, she is also in violation of copyright law for the maker of the stamps and is liable there also.
Now, before some start chiming in with "it's no big deal" etc, it IS a big deal.
The needlework industry has been devastated in the last 10 years by the effects of copyright violation. Many designers have been forced out of the business by people violating the copyrights to their patterns and the resulting loss of business. It was very hard at the beginning for those designers who foresaw the possible effects to convince others of the risks and the industry as a whole was very slow to make attempts to deal with the issue. Many lost jobs and lost businesses in the industry resulted from this delay. Others have been able to maintain their businesses but have seen drastic drops in income.
You can go on ebay at any time and find someone who will sell you a needlework chart of a Disney image, or a Warner Brother's image, or a chart made from a movie poster, etc. that they say is "computer-generated". Virtually all of these are illegal and are violations of copyright law.
The issue of intellectual property has permeated many businesses in the last 10-15 years with the easy ability to steal ideas on the Internet.
Finally, it is a matter of respect, or lack thereof. To steal intellectual property from someone else, and then claim or present it as your own is despicable- and illegal!
Now, the likelihood of someone being prosecuted for stealing a card design is small. However, many pattern stealers and reproducers are indeed finding themselves going through federal prosecutions for copyright violations, when they thought that "no one cares". People do care- and some DO prosecute.
In summary- anyone selling cards who is using someone else's design or using stamps without having the correct angel policy procedures in place, IS IN VIOLATION OF THE LAW.
Wow, thanks! ;) You put a lot of this in to really good terms for me to understand.
I'm certainly not an expert on copyright law, but this is a quote from Wikipedia about artistic works and copyright: "Typically, a work must meet minimal standards of originality in order to qualify for copyright,..." Now do any of our cards really meet this qualifier? Who here was the very first person to use ribbon on their card? Or to put stickles on their card? I personally can't see that there really is that much "originality" as far as basic design of cards go. I think you would be hard pressed to prove that your design was constructed first. This is also another quote from Wikipedia about the "poor man's copyright":
"A widely circulated strategy to avoid the cost of copyright registration is referred to as the "poor man's copyright." It proposes that the creator send the work to himself in a sealed envelope by registered mail, using the postmark to establish the date. This technique has not been recognized in any published opinions of the United States courts. While such a technique might have evidentiary value in a court of law, the method is potentially flawed because the United States Postal Service does not require an envelope to be sealed before it is mailed. The United States Copyright Office makes clear that the technique is no substitute for actual registration.[8] The United Kingdom Intellectual Property Office discusses the technique but does not recommend its use."
I personally would feel a bit annoyed because I would think "why didn't I put mine up for sale first?", but I also would be flattered because someone thinks my "design" (should be said "interpretation of a design") is worth selling.
Just my opinion.....
Last edited by cat_woman; 04-25-2008 at 12:16 PM..
I will chime in...
I recently experienced this too... I am flattered by CASING and copying and whatever, but what crosses the line for me is when they are SELLING the card to make money, or submitting for publication. That is frustrating.
Just a quick note re: the card cased from Papercrafts Magazine:
It's my understanding that once a person contracts with a magazine to use an individuals card, the magazine then own all rights to that card. I don't know Papercrafts stance on someone casing from their publication for profit but it would be interested in hearing it.
I have a question......Doesn't a person have to apply for a copyright before being able to have their work come under copyright laws?
For me to just say that the card I post you can not reproduce and call your own, would carry no weight by law.
Has each person who posts a card in the gallery or on their blog applied for and gotten a copyright for their work? Just to put a disclaimer on the blog stating that nothing can be copied, etc. doesn't seem like it would have any merit.
Personally, I don't have a blog and no plans for one nor do I post my card creations in a gallery. But I do find it interesting to read all your comments on this subject.
does this bother you?
