Splitcoaststampers.com - the world's #1 papercrafting community
You're currently viewing Splitcoaststampers as a GUEST. We pride ourselves on being great hosts, but guests have limited access to some of our incredible artwork, our lively forums and other super cool features of the site! You can join our incredible papercrafting community at NO COST. So what are you waiting for?
Funnily enough, I just saw this up on Facebook! Very interesting read, and she is absolutely right when she says people expect crafters to work for free, just because we enjoy what we do. Thats why people expect to buy 'hand made' for pennies!
I have a friend who constantly tells me I should start a business because she thinks my stuff is good. But . . . people don't want to pay what the stuff is worth! And that's exactly why I won't do it.
It is an interesting read. This seems to be an issue across industries as she's pointed out. I've followed the hair boards for years and have seen how it's changed any variety of bloggers who started out offering direct honest product reviews suddenly decide they will shill for a product with overly bright reviews. All because of the dangling carrot of "exposure" and hopefully (in the far far future) money.
So imagine my shock when I read that it was an issue in baking (cake making) and craft making. Social media/YT and blogs have changed the way products are marketed to people but not how people are exploited while marketing said products.
I agree! A lot of my co-workers have told me that I should make and sell cards, but I tell them I would make GOBS and GOBS more money just working at a minimum wage job!!
I dealt with this when a customer wanted me to cross stitch a birth sampler for them years ago. They thought my offer of $35 (which was ridiculously low) was expensive-they were thinking it would be about $10. Seriously.
I agree! A lot of my co-workers have told me that I should make and sell cards, but I tell them I would make GOBS and GOBS more money just working at a minimum wage job!!
I agree with the OP and all the comments made.
When someone tells me I should sell my cards, I usually ask them how much "they" would be willing to pay for a card. It seems to open their eyes to the market for hand made cards.
I do have a few regular customers who buy cards.
They are my friends and understand what it takes to make a card.
I do agree we should value our work more. Most times I just say no to doing
unreasonable projects for people who have no clue.
Totally agree. I refuse to work for 86 cents per hour. ;)
My friend has been talking to me about building up my inventory for a spring craft show. But that means working hard and fast on projects I care nothing about. After a full work week, I just want to work on stuff I enjoy, whether it's gelli printing, making a card, or playing with mixed media. I don't put pressure on myself to make something "useful."
__________________ Debbie "Make it work, people." - Tim Gunn My Gallery
Saw that on FB..as long as there are people willing to work for glitter things are never going to change.
Wise words to all of the crafters who dream! dream! dream! of being on a design team. Be careful what you wish for, as you will likely be putting in a lot of time and energy working for said "glitter" in return.
Wise words to all of the crafters who dream! dream! dream! of being on a design team. Be careful what you wish for, as you will likely be putting in a lot of time and energy working for said "glitter" in return.
True... I shake my head at calls I see all the time.
On the other hand though... if you love the glitter you'll be working with (and the amount of glitter is a reasonable amount for your services) then that's OK too. Just make sure you are aware of what you are signing on to when you apply for a call. Ask questions.
__________________ Jeanne S - Inky Paws SCS Moderator
Wise words to all of the crafters who dream! dream! dream! of being on a design team. Be careful what you wish for, as you will likely be putting in a lot of time and energy working for said "glitter" in return.
When I first started making cards, I thought being on a design team would be great. And it was at first. It helped me get a little better. Then it became work. I think if I was actually getting product that I would have been buying anyway, I would have been pretty happy at the time. As it was, because I don't live in the US, all I was ever offered was digi stamps - which actually didn't cost the company anything to give me and it was a lot of hours and my money on craft supplies on my end working on these projects. So, I don't apply to and I turn down offers from design teams. Unless I'm getting something I want or cash, its really not worth my time.
GREAT topic - and thanks to the OP for posting the link: it was a fantastic read. I was on a DT for about 2 years and it cost me more financially to be on a DT than not being on one eg: using the latest designer papers, dies, embossing folders: basically all the products I used for my cards had to be widely available. I don't regret the experience because I learned alot from it. Now I just make cards because I love making cards - I have no desire to be on another DT. I do get people saying that I should sell them but they seem to think that I can just whip up a batch of 10 cards in an hour and they don't want to pay more then $1 - they have no clue! I am sure that they think I make my own cards to "save money instead of buying them" ROTFLMHO!
When someone tells me I should sell my cards, I usually ask them how much "they" would be willing to pay for a card. It seems to open their eyes to the market for hand made cards.
I dealt with this when a customer wanted me to cross stitch a birth sampler for them years ago. They thought my offer of $35 (which was ridiculously low) was expensive-they were thinking it would be about $10. Seriously.
I had a friend ask me if I could stitch down the back side of a quilt binding on a baby quilt. Neither of us discussed compensation in the beginning. She's a friend, right? Well, I did it for her and she paid me $10. When she said that she'd like me to do more for her, I said "No. My time is worth more than what you are interested in paying." It didn't go over too well.
Funny that she pays mega-bucks sending her quilts out to have them hand-quilted and pays whatever they ask.
Wise words to all of the crafters who dream! dream! dream! of being on a design team. Be careful what you wish for, as you will likely be putting in a lot of time and energy working for said "glitter" in return.
Actually I enjoyed my time on a design team. I was ever only on Crafty Secrets' design team, and I actually didn't apply - she contacted me. They paid me in stamp sets - really, they shovelled them at me - all the ones I wanted! I lost count of how many they sent me. I felt they did not take advantage of me at all. I stopped because I started getting burned out - I wanted to mix my stamps and not worry about only using one company's stamps and no others.
It's the card-making for non-crafty people that I have a hard time with. Years ago I would always say yes. Now I've learned to say NO NO NO. Unless they specifically want a very girlie card and have very low standards (so that I can basically make whatever I want - all the cards I love making are girlie), and if they're willing to pay $8 a card. But next year it'll be $9 a card.
Edited to add: The exception is for co-workers who regularly bring me treats - they've put their time into baking it, etc. and I know that's hard too. I see that as an equal exchange of time and effort.
Last edited by SophieLaFontaine; 11-22-2014 at 07:10 AM..
It IS an interesting topic. I quit doing design teams awhile ago because, as someone else posted, my fun became work and I got burned out. Now I may promote for someone whose products I enjoy and am already using and would love to get for free but only if it is not terribly restrictive. I am contemplating going back to one because it is a product I already pretty much use on every single project anyway and our budget right now does not include much of anything for supplies. I would be the coordinator so this thread is good food for thought.
I would like to parlay this into money making but I have given up on that idea! Few people are ever willing to pay what it costs to make stuff.
I was on one DT once where I had a lot of projects and web wide posting requirements, my projects had to be 100% products from the store AND I had to purchase said products myself. UM nope.
I used to be interested in DT until I read a few blogs and decided it's not for me. I did a huge craft fair, worked like a dog for months, made some money but not nearly enough for my time. I don't plan on doing it again.
I run classes from my house and do nicely but its only money to buy my own craft supplies. I've always found it interesting that other crafters would think you could make a living selling cards. Me thinks they are sniffing glitter.
All in all, no amount of publicity is going to make it worthwhile for me at this point in time.
In the case of Dirty Dozen or any other design team here on splitcoast, I feel that I've received SO MUCH from the site that a chance to give back is (or would be in the case of DD) awesome....no glitter required ;);)
__________________ Gail
Last edited by mamaxsix; 11-22-2014 at 01:56 PM..
Reason: clarify
What got me was a fellow card maker. A group of women loved the Halloween cards I made a couple of years ago and asked me to do a class for them. I agreed, and asked $25 per person to do 5 cards each. Each card was very detailed or had very expensive embellishments, which I purchased at retail prices and provided. One of the women who asked me to do this class got very nasty with me, because the LSS we all go to only charges $16 to $18 for card classes. Well, I'm not a store is promoting the products I sell, I wasn't getting paid wages while teaching the class, or getting the supplies at wholesale costs. The other women in the group were all thrilled with my class, that one chose not to come. Her attitude and nasty comments to me about "ripping them off" for the class still get to me when I think about it.
It IS an interesting topic. I quit doing design teams awhile ago because, as someone else posted, my fun became work and I got burned out. Now I may promote for someone whose products I enjoy and am already using and would love to get for free but only if it is not terribly restrictive. I am contemplating going back to one because it is a product I already pretty much use on every single project anyway and our budget right now does not include much of anything for supplies. I would be the coordinator so this thread is good food for thought.
I would like to parlay this into money making but I have given up on that idea! Few people are ever willing to pay what it costs to make stuff.
I was on one DT once where I had a lot of projects and web wide posting requirements, my projects had to be 100% products from the store AND I had to purchase said products myself. UM nope.
Big no. ;)
__________________ Jeanne S - Inky Paws SCS Moderator
I've thought much about this topic since I first posted it. I did not realize how widespread across the creative arts this practice of "working for publicity" was. Is it that the talents of creative people not valued...or as creative people we do not insist on putting a proper price on our work?
I am on several facebook crafting groups and am amazed that people who sell their goods so cheaply. One silhouette group mentioned a woman selling ornaments at about $2.00 - which would not even cover the cost of materials. Sad - this devalues everyones work.
If we all stood together and put a fair price on our work then the public would end up paying! I teach classes and have learned to state a minimum # of people required - had too many classes where people just did not show up.
As for design teams, I know a few pay their designers in $$ but it is far and few. It's interesting that stamp companies will pay the artist to create the image, the IT people to design and manage their site, people to handle customer service and mailing but will not pay their design team. I can only speak for myself but 99% of the time my purchases have been decided by seeing something that a designer made with the stamp! And often I would think I did not want the set UNTIL I saw the design team samples.
Stamp companies - your best sales people are your design team members. Please compensate them in $$$!!!
The "creative arts" are not the only area suffering from devaluation - it's pretty much anything done "by hand". My husband is a mason, and an incredibly gifted and skilled one, and the true craftsmen are being pushed out by the contractors that just want it done fast - no matter how scabbed together - and don't want to pay anything. What he is capable of is quickly becoming a lost art. For example, those beautiful walls made from field stone with no mortar in them (dry-laid is the proper term) takes some engineering knowledge as well as the ability to execute, and I can't name a single mason besides my husband who knows how to do this! I can't tell you how many jobsites he's been called in on to consult, then had his suggestions nixed because it would take too long. The result is shabby work that has to be re-done in a few years, rather than a beautiful structure that lasts for decades or even centuries... Oh - and he's been unemployed for much of the past year because no one wants to pay for skilled labor. They'll pay through the nose for a doctor or lawyer or IT tech or whatever, but can any of them build you a house? Or fix the one you have? The skilled trades are largely devalued because the focus has turned to paying people for what they do with their head, and not what they do with their hands. (Can you tell I've copped a bit of resentment on this particular issue?) Thanks for listening to my little rant...
The "creative arts" are not the only area suffering from devaluation - it's pretty much anything done "by hand". My husband is a mason, and an incredibly gifted and skilled one, and the true craftsmen are being pushed out by the contractors that just want it done fast - no matter how scabbed together - and don't want to pay anything. What he is capable of is quickly becoming a lost art. For example, those beautiful walls made from field stone with no mortar in them (dry-laid is the proper term) takes some engineering knowledge as well as the ability to execute, and I can't name a single mason besides my husband who knows how to do this! I can't tell you how many jobsites he's been called in on to consult, then had his suggestions nixed because it would take too long. The result is shabby work that has to be re-done in a few years, rather than a beautiful structure that lasts for decades or even centuries... Oh - and he's been unemployed for much of the past year because no one wants to pay for skilled labor. They'll pay through the nose for a doctor or lawyer or IT tech or whatever, but can any of them build you a house? Or fix the one you have? The skilled trades are largely devalued because the focus has turned to paying people for what they do with their head, and not what they do with their hands. (Can you tell I've copped a bit of resentment on this particular issue?) Thanks for listening to my little rant...
I can see why this would be though... my brother-in-law is a lawyer, and he says NO ONE searches him out for business - when they contact him, it's ALWAYS an awful, horrible last resort for them. So while people may pay through the nose for a lawyer (or doctor) it's sometimes 'cause they feel like they're down to their last, most unsavory option.
I can see why this would be though... my brother-in-law is a lawyer, and he says NO ONE searches him out for business - when they contact him, it's ALWAYS an awful, horrible last resort for them. So while people may pay through the nose for a lawyer (or doctor) it's sometimes 'cause they feel like they're down to their last, most unsavory option.
I take your point, Sophie, and I certainly have no problem with people paying doctors and lawyers and IT techs - they have student loans and current bills to pay, after all - I just get annoyed that people seem to overlook the fact that those who work with their hands need to earn a living, too.
Your statement about your brother-in-law also made me wonder what type of attorney he is (corporate, small claims, personal injury, defense), if he's the "last, most unsavory option". I've paid attorneys for perfectly okay stuff - and I had to seek them out to do it! Whatever type he is, I'll bet that the people he works with are grateful that he does what he does, even if it's their last option...
....When someone tells me I should sell my cards, I usually ask them how much "they" would be willing to pay for a card. It seems to open their eyes to the market for hand made cards. ...
Wonderful reply. I may use it next time someone suggests my selling cards. I always just politely say no, "I don't sell them". But what I'm really thinking is, "Honey you can't afford my cards." And it's not because I'm such a wonderfully talented card maker, because I'm not. I'm working full time and my time is far more valuable to me than the pittance that people are willing to pay. A few times I have created and gifted a card to someone who was interested in buying but refused to take any money. That way I can be magnanimous instead of resentful of having my time (and expenses) devalued.
After I retire and have more time and less money, I'll reconsider the issue. Maybe then "supporting my habit" will be worthwhile. I do plan to do cards for various charities after I retire.
Dea
What got me was a fellow card maker. A group of women loved the Halloween cards I made a couple of years ago and asked me to do a class for them. I agreed, and asked $25 per person to do 5 cards each. Each card was very detailed or had very expensive embellishments, which I purchased at retail prices and provided. One of the women who asked me to do this class got very nasty with me, because the LSS we all go to only charges $16 to $18 for card classes. Well, I'm not a store is promoting the products I sell, I wasn't getting paid wages while teaching the class, or getting the supplies at wholesale costs. The other women in the group were all thrilled with my class, that one chose not to come. Her attitude and nasty comments to me about "ripping them off" for the class still get to me when I think about it.
Snappy comeback of the week: "Well, you can do 3 cards for $16 but I get to choose which 3." LoL. Not that saying that to her would have helped the situation any. Your price was very reasonable. I'm sorry you had that experience.
Dea
Wonderful reply. I may use it next time someone suggests my selling cards. I always just politely say no, "I don't sell them". But what I'm really thinking is, "Honey you can't afford my cards." And it's not because I'm such a wonderfully talented card maker, because I'm not. I'm working full time and my time is far more valuable to me than the pittance that people are willing to pay.
Dea
Amen!
Since I began following along with this thread, I decided (while in the shower this morning ;) ) to do some figuring.
Let's say I make a card with $1 in materials. Now that's not a one layer card. It has some layers. It probably has ribbon, embellies, etc. But not over the top.
And let's say that I don't even count my brainstorming process. Let's just count the time I spend making the card. Cutting, matching materials, actually assembling the card...you get the picture. I'd say that takes 30-45 minutes.
At $10 an hour...just a little above minimum wage...that card would be worth $6 to $8.50.
But will people pay that? They sure don't seem to want to! They aren't thinking realistically, that's for sure!
It reminded me of another situation that irked me at the time. I donate cards to church for our missions team to write to the missionaries we support. One of the missions team wanted to use one of those cards for personal use, and she came to me and told me that's what she did and offered to pay for it. She gave me $1. I had to clench my jaw just to keep it from dropping to the floor. :rolleyes:
Thank you everyone for your experiences and knowledge on this issue. I did think about this topic, and I see a lot of people doing 'classes' where they charge around 5 dollars per card and do all the work for the ladies - all that is required is glue to assemble. Even at this, I don't think it pays for the materials and time put into the prep (and people getting cranky that they feel 5 dollars per card is too much).
So I thought I would rather make cards for charities and churches or other orgs that could use them to thank people for donations. The cost of these cards are a tax right off, right? Anyone ever done that? Taken the cards they donate off their taxes?
I do! I just love to make cards and I am very uncomfortable with someone paying me for them. So I just leave them all in a box at my church, with the request that they use them to bless others. I also have a group over once a month to stamp. I design and cut everything, and then we have a great time assembling them. They take home what they make. I don't charge for any of it, so I estimate what my supplies cost is (for the cards I leave at church) and deduct that on my taxes under charitable donations.
Once someone wants to pay me to make them cards, I begin second-guessing what I am making (i.e. is this good enough for someone to pay for? Should my cutting be straighter, etc.?).
The "creative arts" are not the only area suffering from devaluation - it's pretty much anything done "by hand". My husband is a mason, and an incredibly gifted and skilled one, and the true craftsmen are being pushed out by the contractors that just want it done fast - no matter how scabbed together - and don't want to pay anything. What he is capable of is quickly becoming a lost art. For example, those beautiful walls made from field stone with no mortar in them (dry-laid is the proper term) takes some engineering knowledge as well as the ability to execute, and I can't name a single mason besides my husband who knows how to do this! I can't tell you how many jobsites he's been called in on to consult, then had his suggestions nixed because it would take too long. The result is shabby work that has to be re-done in a few years, rather than a beautiful structure that lasts for decades or even centuries... Oh - and he's been unemployed for much of the past year because no one wants to pay for skilled labor. They'll pay through the nose for a doctor or lawyer or IT tech or whatever, but can any of them build you a house? Or fix the one you have? The skilled trades are largely devalued because the focus has turned to paying people for what they do with their head, and not what they do with their hands. (Can you tell I've copped a bit of resentment on this particular issue?) Thanks for listening to my little rant...
I love dry laid stone walls but then again I lived in England where there were loads of them. They are living art.
I dealt with this when a customer wanted me to cross stitch a birth sampler for them years ago. They thought my offer of $35 (which was ridiculously low) was expensive-they were thinking it would be about $10. Seriously.
I would have been really offended. You are a sweetheart to offer them $35. My asking price is $100 for a sampler. I have gotten that price too.
Back in the 1990's somebody asked my friend if I would stitch a piece for her. It was a complicated Chinese pattern on linen with silk threads. My friend is not a crafter. She said "I think she would charge $500." The woman got so mad because she expected me to stitch a complicated piece for $25. My friend was so insulted and cussed her out. I love my girl.
I grew up in a home with a professional crafter. Luckily I was raised in the crafting business. The big thing I have always noticed that it's crafter who want everything free. I think it's because we all can make it. Why should we pay certain amount of $$$$ for it. Think about it how many times has a fellow crafter asked if you could make something. You give them the price and they look at you if they are insulted.
Years back I went to a small craft/bake sale at a small church. My Mom knows a bunch of the ladies there. This lady had beautiful handmade cards. I bought several of them. She seemed so shocked. She told my Mom after I walked away I was the only customer who didn't try to bargain with her. How much it meant to her that I didn't. It made her feel like her work was worthy. When my Mom told me this, I cried. I just couldn't believe in this sisterhood/brotherhood of crafting we would try to take advantage of each other.
I do understand people who don't craft might look at our work as something that they should get cheaper. They don't know any better. I think they should, lol. Realistically, most people don't have a trained artisan eye. It's like one of my friends said to me one time that everyone doesn't realize how hard it is for him to grow that corn he sells. You just have to grit your teeth and sell the corn.
Artists should never take advantage of another artist. That goes for Design Teams too. ;)
found this blog post interesting
