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I was talking about big box stores in general.
Lowe's and Home Depot versus the little hardware store my husband used to love.
Walgreens, CVS, Rite Aid versus an independent pharmacist.
In my area, we have Michaels and AC Moore, and despite the huge variety in a nearby scrapbook store, it closed.
Honestly, I'm thinking that Stampin Up!, Close To My Heart, and a couple of others (can't think of them right now) are the big guys in the stamping world. I'm not saying they are big box, but they are big compared to some. I may be wrong, but as far as I know, the big companies don't have the design teams. Correct me if I'm wrong. These companies do have a huge variety, as well as great customer service.
I'm definitely not trying to start an argument here. Just asking an observation.
As far as I know these companies do have blogs and design teams. Especially for their catalogs.
If you are talking about stamp companies like Penny Black, Impression Obsession, Northwoods, Stampdenous, These compainies all have blogs with design teams.
What I call independent are compaines like GinaK, Papertrey, Unity and so on. These companies have blogs and design teams.
Or are you talking about Big Box Stores like you listed above Lowe's, Home depot, Walgreen. To me these companies have Advertisers, Commercials and sale fliers in newspapers.
I just don't understand what you are trying to say here. No argument, just questioning as I don't understand.
__________________ The quickest way for a parent to get a child's attention is to sit down and look comfortable. Practice safe eating always use condiments
Last edited by dini; 06-26-2016 at 11:48 AM..
Reason: fixed code
It saddens me deeply as a costumer of many different stamp companies, that this situation is happening. I had no idea. I never really thought about compensation for the design team members. I just thought that when a card is designed especially if the company request this card for stamp/scrap show, that there was a monetary payment for designers work.
__________________ The quickest way for a parent to get a child's attention is to sit down and look comfortable. Practice safe eating always use condiments
Lynne, I agree that Design Teams are a lifeblood of just about any paper crafting business. Majority would have no chance of existence otherwise. Heck, even stores have their DT's, not only design companies. The small guys would not have survived if it wasn't for free work.
It's a unique trait in our community, how we're willing to give off our time, resources, talent, to help out someone else. Especially in the increasingly hard times, as you aptly pinpointed.
Thing is, the choice goes both ways. We have a choice to either work for free or not. This is the choice I made, but it took me years to start seeing out of the square and realize that there's something very unnatural about the DT hype.
The choice also belongs to a person, when they decide to open a company. I was seriously considering opening a stamp design business once. I did my maths, decided that I wouldn't have the time to manage all aspects of business alone, and neither I was in a position to hire someone to help out.
I never opened that business. I wouldn't be able to look myself in the eyes, knowing that it's growing because someone else is doing the hard work for me for mere pittance. I'm not that kind of person.
And funnily enough, the fact is (at least from my experience), that it's the big companies that are more likely to undervalue or exploit.
I had the nicest experiences with the small guys, they were close knit friendships and surprise surprise, they were the only ones ever trying their best to pay their DT's. It was just pocket money, nevertheless they always tried to do whatever they could, and as soon as. It was their personal experience perhaps, as women juggling kids, house and business, and knowing the dedication it takes. They know they offsource a giant and vital amount of work, and they value the help they get.
The most traumatic experience I had was with the biggest company I worked for. A giant in the industry who had means to bring international DT to US for a retreat, and treat us to more product we could carry. But you know what, all this product never bought back the countless hours I needed to spend working for them, it didn't sweeten up the reality of having unseen extra responsibilities popping up on a regular basis. It never bought my family food to put on a plate. But it did break me, a hardworking person that I am. It got me spiraling down the path of constant lack of sleep, neglecting kids, feeling terrible about myself, and finally depression. It three or four short months.
__________________ My blog CASE study - my challenge blog (discontinued)
Iwona absolutely deserves appropriate compensation. She is providing creative content AND advertising for these companies. I personally have been influenced to purchase sets from companies she has featured. Most online "influencers" with a large following get *PAID*. Any other advertiser or spokesperson would be paid. When the Food Network features a particular brand in a TV show, they get paid.
The number of visitors to a website should be enough to prove influence. The company should also be able to track visitors coming from the influencer's website.
And of a lot of these so-called "fun" activities stop being fun when there is deadline pressure.
I love a lot of these stamp companies, and I want them to keep thriving. And it's great that some of them are providing appropriate compensation. But, it's also important to recognize your worth and say no to free work.
__________________ Elizabeth in Hoboken, proud parent of a feisty and mischievous parrot who likes to chew craft supplies
Elizabeth, this is the exact reason I give to people who say that "it's a hobby", "but you like doing it" and such. It's not a crime to love your job, in fact that's one of the most swell things that can happen to a person.
Yet none of it contradicts the simple fact that DT's working for manufacturers, stores and such, are performing a job for them. It's really that simple.
It was an incredibly humbling and satisfying experience, but I had more than enough proof that I'm doing a satisfactory job as a member of any DT I've been on.
I could walk with a wide smile on my face, feeling like an achiever, among other paper crafters - but before my family, immediate and extended, I gained nothing but personal satisfaction. Which is important, of course, but it's barely a vital asset of any job there is.
I've NO PROBLEM whatsoever with sharing inspiration freely. I've been going above and beyond doing just that, on top of my DT work.
I love the idea of challenges with their DT's who unite in passion for creating. But once business comes into equation, it stops being all fun and games, and we all need to take on responsibilities.
__________________ My blog CASE study - my challenge blog (discontinued)
Thank you Bev, for your kindness and an extremely well written personal account! I'm humbled.
I've been revisiting this subject over and over again, in retrospection. I've been called names for speaking up, and downgraded to an uneducated, spit covered SAHM with a huge ego problem, by a bunch of haters. The taboo is well established, and we've been gradually ground into thinking that the talent we lend to paper crafting companies, so that they can grow off it, all the hard work we're doing for them, is not deserving a fair treatment.
Seriously? That's horrendous! That really burns me. I for one appreciate the enlightenment. Thank you. I know I dont have to tell you that people who resort to that kind of hate arent worth thinking about for a second longer than it takes to hit delete.
I dont think what you said would necessarily keep a person from being on DTs...but would just inform them of what could happen so they make an educated decision and who doesnt appreciate that??
I am wondering what is causing the additional "pop ups"? Are they agreeing to participate in someone's sudden blog hop and then you have to crank out a card?
Those articles were interesting reads, but they did not surprise me. I used to want to be a designer too. I mean, I like my designs. I'm a crafter for the pure enjoyment of it, not a business person in anyway, not even for free stuff. I say right on to those who have the oomph and determination to make crafting a business for themselves, whatever the compensation is for them.
__________________ *Alice* All science is either physics or stamp collecting. -Lord Kelvin
My Mother always did crafts (mainly needle work), guess that's where I get my enjoyment from. Sooo many people told her she should sell her wares. When she sat down to figure out the price she should charge, based mainly on her hours, she found it would have been either an exorbitant price or she would only make about 5 cents an hour based on what she could realistically charge for it. She never sold much and did only for the fun of it and to people she knew would appreciate it. I took that "calculation" and decided the joy of what I do is worth waaaay more than I could ever charge for something, as the commercial goes "priceless", so I occasionally sell a card here and there but would never do it for pay or on demand!
I too thought the DT members were compensated at least free product to produce the whole item (stamps, paper, ink, embellishments, and the co. chosen adhesive.) I knew they had deadlines and have read the occasional post of someone who is resigning from a DT lamenting the time they no longer had to enjoy their craft. . . they are burned out! This is such a peace giving craft and expression of joy and love that that is such a shame to hear. For the reasons given, would not make a card for pay or on demand, loss of joy, and though the product may have a value, the process is priceless, I would not choose to be on a DT. I'm saddened to hear that these very talented ladies are not given the recognition and compensation they deserve for the hard work that they do.
Mahalo for pointing this out. This may help some make a more informed decision on whether to participate on a DT or not.
Hoboken, those were great articles you linked for us. Thanks. Who would have ever thought the world's richest woman would be so cheap? Amazing. Simply amazing.
__________________
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Former DT Dolce Designs, Rubbernecker, StampItCrazy,
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"Do not go where the path may lead; go instead where there
is no path and leave a trail." ... Ralph Waldo Emerson
@Anne -- Yes, I think there's some cultural bias regarding women and work, and then just the arts in general. We're only now starting to recognize quilts and samplers as valuable art works. And in the 21st-century we are still talking about equal pay for women.
The widow in the painting is "nameless and friendless" as she tries to convince a dealer to pay for her art work. It's a little heavy handed, but it gets the point across.
And just to go back to the "fun" aspect for a moment. If I choose to bake a dozen cookies one weekend for fun, I can do so at my leisure, give up, refrigerate the dough, whatever. If I goof, it's fine. It's just one batch for fun.
If I work in a bakery, I get up at 4:00 a.m. and work for hours trying to meet the day's demand. If I mess up a batch by using salt instead of sugar, I have to start all over again, even if I'm tired, even if my family needs me, even if I have to run to the store to get new ingredients.
I can still see why it might be fun for some people to be part of a community and be satisfied with free goodies, but it can also get to be a real drag and start to feel thankless after awhile.
I've done some work for free/limited compensation, and it can get very tiring very quickly. The recipient starts out being grateful and then all of a sudden starts giving you demands like you're an employee -- no fun at all.
__________________ Elizabeth in Hoboken, proud parent of a feisty and mischievous parrot who likes to chew craft supplies
If I worked for a design team (HA! not talented nearly enough!!), I'd try to milk it as much as possible, but being paid to do so sure would be nice. I'd try to get money from selling the sets and dies that I know I won't use personally later on after each new release(buyer pays shipping), making multiples and selling them, using affiliate links to SSS, Amazon, etc., using advertising—anything to make extra money out of that work.
I'm a freelance copyeditor, so I totally understand artists wanting to get paid a percentage of sales. I wish I could charge a percentage of the authors' sales on top of my super reasonable flat-rate fees, but there is so much competition out there who will do the work for less, that I just can't charge what I would like to be earning. However, many of my clients add my name and sometimes my website on their acknowledgements section, so I receive lots of new clients by word of mouth, and I even give $50 discounts for referrals. Win-win for both the authors and me.
Thank you Bev, for your kindness and an extremely well written personal account! I'm humbled.
I've been revisiting this subject over and over again, in retrospection. I've been called names for speaking up, and downgraded to an uneducated, spit covered SAHM with a huge ego problem, by a bunch of haters. The taboo is well established, and we've been gradually ground into thinking that the talent we lend to paper crafting companies, so that they can grow off it, all the hard work we're doing for them, is not deserving a fair treatment.
WHAT?! To borrow from the lingo of Bugs Bunny, "Them's fightin' words!" Tell me names and addresses, because I seriously want to go to their houses and confront them face to face. And maybe kick their behinds while I'm at it. ;)
I hope my re-post here didn't fan the flames, Chupa. I know full well the toll this took on you, personally. If you can save someone else the heartache and grief, then you have done a wonderful service. Thanks for speaking truth and sharing your story!
Aw, thanks Mary Rose! You're very kind :*
People who live off hating can be found everywhere, unfortunately. I didn't expect to find them in our community, that's all. I left it behind, nothing else you can do about it, really
Judging by the amount of comments and interest in the subject, it did do some good. I had a friend who's a DT coordinator come to me saying that she successfully talked a manufacturer into giving their DT a pay.
I understand the claim that it's but a hobby or past time to many, and that giving it structure & monetary gratification would likely kill the passion. But then again, probably Design Teams are not perfect places to hang out for them anyway. Regardless of the reward system, there are deadlines, there is stress, the occasional pressure of working with product we wouldn't otherwise endorse, and last minute assignments. It is a wonderfully creative ... JOB.
Plenty of people built successful businesses based on their handmade skills. It's not a forbidden subject, it's not witchcraft. To each their own - some can do it, some can't. I bet my head on this, that if our Designers were receiving a fair treatment, there would be much fewer stories of burning out, leaving crafting altogether, unspoken grievances.
When you go above and beyond for someone, and all you get in return is some stamps (or whatever else there is) that you don't even have the time and opportunity to use again - the same product you need to have anyway in order to promote it - and then you're led to think that the tools you just received are actually the payment for your work, and you should be jumping out for joy, I just see so much wrong with this picture.
It's so weird, looking at this now from the perspective of my own experiences. I too was seeing my DT responsibilities as a great honour and privilege, and almost peeing my pants in excitement.
It never occurred to me that nobody would hire me in the first place, if they didn't suspect that they're investing wisely. Nobody picks DT's on looks. To business owners they are solid, carefully thought through decisions.
I may be bursting a bubble here, but we're no different to these small biz owners. They picked their job because they love what they do. They also get to play with their beloved 'toys', surround themselves with them. It's often a dream come true. The difference is, they also have tasks to perform in order to sustain themselves and their family off that great job of theirs. It's perfectly normal.
And then there's us on DT's who work for them so that these businesses can continue, but us, on the other hand, are surprisingly stripped from the basic right to be paid.
It's not only wrong, but I don't think, in many cases, it's legal either.
__________________ My blog CASE study - my challenge blog (discontinued)
I'd try to get money from selling the sets and dies that I know I won't use personally later on after each new release(buyer pays shipping), making multiples and selling them, using affiliate links to SSS, Amazon, etc., using advertising—anything to make extra money out of that work.
Funnily enough, I heard of many paper crafting businesses that forbid re-selling DT product. You can get kicked out if they find out. You can keep it forever, or gift to a friend, but not sell (although I'm not sure if anything changed since). No comment. :
With the affiliate links, granted the traffic on the blog is good, it's not a bad pocket money. But you do need to be approved first, based on your blog's 'worth'.
I wouldn't go the path of selling multiples. It's POOR money for starters (just like selling cards, I found it not worth the effort), but it's widely frowned upon. With digital stamps, it's also (naturally) illegal.
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Goodly Creations-I went through that with my mom-she designed and made Barbie clothes to supplement her SS...an outfit that took her three days to make...she sold for 13 dollars and it was her highest priced item. That wasnt wholesale-that was direct to the public. But she said with 2 buck outfits in Woolworths she could not ask for more. It was why she refused to agree to do it for private stores though when asked. She was on her own timetable and only had to be ready for a few streetfairs a year.
I think it boils down to something very simple from a business POV.
This is advertising for them flat out. Every company in the world understands you PAY for advertising. I hardly think Coke could offer enough free soda to Madison Ave to get them to do concepts. And they certainly send over artwork or product of new releases for them to work with, and they dont call that payment. You can sub any company for Coke if you want a more permanent product that might have some value in the back end.
They buy a concept. Then they pay to market it. They get x exposure-tv time, print ad, sides of buses, whatever. If it hits and grows legs and everyone is yakking about it, great. If not, they move on. Yes they alway have that artwork, but they are not going to keep using it. They will create new ads.
With this-people's blogs are forever, esp tutorials. They could get referenced forever or certainly for years. I look for "HT use X" on YT and I can easily see vids that are 10 years old depending on the product. Since there are always new people coming to the field, they have to learn.
Furthermore, you need a talent pool-that changes the ballgame. You cant just hire a celebrity to stand there and pitch it. You need samples. DTs are actually functioning as both the ad team (card concept) and the marketer (blog), and as pointed out the life expectancy of their work is FAR longer. There is a reason ad companies get a lot of money.
Chupa can you give us some perspective:
How many cards did you have to produce in a given year for a small company and then for a large company? What are we talking about, aside from the pressure, etc. 30 cards a year? 50?
Chupa pointed out that there are limited places to go with this. Maybe a person could claim they partnered with multiple companies in order to build a live teaching scenario. (vs online) or maybe they are content with just blowing up their own blog so down the line they could do a bunch of affliliate links that combined might pay the electric bill. Who knows how many affliate links a company may have going? Maybe that's where the budget going to?
During a DT cycle, does the DT get an afflilate link? Chupa you mentioned you have had some in the past but I dont know if that was in direct relation to the DT time? I know of people who are not DT people and have links.
I think the big companies DO have design teams, but I'm sure their design teams get paid well.
Chupa - I think it's really horrible that you would be called names and looked down upon for just speaking your heart. I think some people get nasty in that way because they wish that that THEY had the courage to speak up, but don't... and then aim their vitriol in the wrong direction.
You know... if it weren't for the brave souls that step up while the rest of us cower in the corner, nothing would ever change for the better in this world. Let us be grateful instead of hateful.
__________________
Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting: The Soul that rises with us, our life's Star, Hath had elsewhere its setting, And cometh from afar... (-Wordsworth)
So, if the big companies have paid design teams, is it safe to say that the smaller companies couldn't stay in business without free publicity? Or, can they afford it, but choose not to pay?
I don't know. All I know is what I've read here.
It seems to me that if the small companies couldn't exist without free DT members, then if no one volunteered, they would simply go out of business. Kind of survival of the fittest.
Maybe that's what has to happen.
I think the big companies DO have design teams, but I'm sure their design teams get paid well.
I can't be certain of how it looks now (from what I heard, nothing changed), but it's the big companies that are often more likely to not pay or abuse the contract. That was certainly my experience, and I worked for many.
It's the small, one-person businesses, that prove to be the fairest.
As I wrote somewhere above, the women who are in charge, they're like us. They juggle all aspects of business one-handedly, while being mums, wousewives, sometimes also working elsewhere. They know how hard it is, and they know how big & important part of advertising / marketing they offsource in DT's. It's nearly impossible to successfully maintain the business side of things AND create, publish, advertise at the same time. We all know how long it takes until a finished card appears on our blog and social media, from the time we gather supplies.
__________________ My blog CASE study - my challenge blog (discontinued)
So, if the big companies have paid design teams, is it safe to say that the smaller companies couldn't stay in business without free publicity? Or, can they afford it, but choose not to pay?
I don't know. All I know is what I've read here.
It seems to me that if the small companies couldn't exist without free DT members, then if no one volunteered, they would simply go out of business. Kind of survival of the fittest.
Maybe that's what has to happen.
It certainly is the case sometimes, but again, I WAS paid by the small, one-person businesses. They couldn't afford anything but pocket money for their DT members, but they try their best.
Big companies, on the other hand, are a big hit and miss. Big companies are much more likely to use their status in order to create a hype and get people aboard on the basis of thankfulness for being considered.
This is a universal truth for every business out there, every industry - small folk have it hard from the beginning, and they need to hustle hard in order to find their niche and stay afloat. Sometimes they don't make it. It happens all the time, and our industry is no different from the rest.
Now, what I don't understand is why it became a norm, that the fact above justifies hiring people for free, and making them feel that they're doing them a favour?
I'm a small biz owner myself. A handmade business. I create my product, sell it, advertise it, collaborate, pitch, crunch the numbers, etc.
I could be so much more efficient, if I had someone else to create my product for me. I struggle, I'm always facing uncertainty that I will never make it out there, but I'm staying true to myself & my morals.
Regardless of the fact that it would take all the fun out of it, I'm in no financial position to offsource work, and I would never EVER ask anyone:
"hey, you know, can you create a few notebooks for me, here's a metre of fabric and some paper, once you finish with them you'll have some leftovers to do anything you want with". See how it sounds?
Being a start-up business, a small fish in a big pond, is NOT a reason to hire free labour. Unless it's your young cousin that has too much free time on their hands and begs you to give them something fun to do.
__________________ My blog CASE study - my challenge blog (discontinued)
Chupa can you give us some perspective:
How many cards did you have to produce in a given year for a small company and then for a large company? What are we talking about, aside from the pressure, etc. 30 cards a year? 50?
Chupa pointed out that there are limited places to go with this. Maybe a person could claim they partnered with multiple companies in order to build a live teaching scenario. (vs online) or maybe they are content with just blowing up their own blog so down the line they could do a bunch of affliliate links that combined might pay the electric bill. Who knows how many affliate links a company may have going? Maybe that's where the budget going to?
During a DT cycle, does the DT get an afflilate link? Chupa you mentioned you have had some in the past but I dont know if that was in direct relation to the DT time? I know of people who are not DT people and have links.
Oh man, I LOVED what you wrote on marketing, Coke, tutorials, etc. wavejumper. So well put.
To answer your questions. (keep in mind I haven't done it for 1,5 years!)
The usual requirement for any DT out there is a card a week, blogged and advertised. That boils down to a minimum of 50 cards per year.
On top of that (sometimes replacing one week's assignment), are release projects, anything from 1 to 3 per release with blog post and usual advertising. I heard these days there's more & more push towards tutorials, videos being favoured. Video tutorials are DAMN HARD work :shock:
Then on top of that are special collabs & promotional blog hops, and more, depending on business/situation. A lot of times we're only given a short notice. The last minute extras are often not compulsory, but everyone usually swallows the initial shock of 'how do I do it so quickly?' and takes the task on, so you jump in as well in order not to be the only one left out. It's weird and guilt-inducing otherwise.
Affiliate links. I've no big knowledge on it, but I certainly never heard of DT links. Linking to the product made by your manufacturer/store is a requirement, I certainly never was paid for any outcome they might have brought for my employer.
My affiliate account was with SSS and I arranged it myself. SSS needs to assess first whether the blog is worth having the affiliate account set up for it. It was a lot of work initially to make up a complete list of product in Inlinkz, but fairly straightforward afterwards. I could be having $100 or more a month from it in my blog's heyday, and it was certainly more than I would have ever gotten from any of my DT's.
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Yes, Chupa is correct in pointing out that often times, the contract forbids the DT member to sell the product. The DT is often given prototype stamp sets and product that is not packaged in the same way as it is for the consumer. It's silly, but there you have it...a boatload of product that a.) you may not have even liked when you first received it, and b.) you can't sell it even if you want to!
Let's not forget, it's not just about making cards. It's also about:
a.) photography skills, which can be very time consuming
b.) writing witty blog posts, also time consuming
c.) posting to multiple galleries such as SCS, again time consuming
d.) visiting other affiliate blogs and commenting
e.) shopping for product to use for future creations
f.) magazine submissions (also often part of contract)
g.) maintaining active presence on forums
The list really goes on and on and on. In the end, you'd make an actual income working as a Starbucks barrista in comparison to the time and energy directed to the "craft", which can actually put you in the negative income earned bracket. Sad.
So, then, why do people do it?
Is it for fame, not fortune?
Is it because at first free product sounds great?
I guess if it's such a terrible thing, I don't understand why people keep doing it.
So, then, why do people do it?
Is it for fame, not fortune?
Is it because at first free product sounds great?
I guess if it's such a terrible thing, I don't understand why people keep doing it.
Hahaha good question, isn't it?
Frankly, it can be a lot of fun, it often is. People wouldn't keep doing it for years otherwise. If I was paid well enough, I'd probably still happily do it.
(and I mean paid only as much to be able to look into my husband's and kids' faces without feeling ashamed of investing so much in something that gives them nothing in return)
There's certainly joy of being recognized, and receiving praise. There's no denying that happy mail is the greatest!
There's just one piece essential of the puzzle missing.
Question is, what can we do about it?? How does it make us all feel about supporting companies that claim they care about their DT's, but they really don't??
Disclaimer: NOT ALL businesses in this industry are bad eggs! There's some really good folk out there too ;)
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