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If it is SU's expectation that customers/demos are to be their police and to watching for and then reporting people, I take real issue with that. As a customer I find that very distasteful.
I personally would contact her directly and let her know she is in violation. Then it's up to her. If it really bothers you, and you notice they are still on sale after she has a chance to act- then you should contact the companies.
Although I too love SU products and use them personally, as a TAC demo, I have to wonder if she is also in violation of her TAC contract (which is available on www.theangelcompany.net for all to see)
One clause
Quote:
6. Representation of Competing Products. I agree not to sell, promote, or represent competing companies or competing products, directly or indirectly, including any in the same generic category
as a TAC™ product or service (i.e., decorative stamps and scrapbook supplies), even if differing in cost, quality, design or format. I understand that if at any time a person living in my household represents a competing company, or sells or promotes competing products, the company may
terminate this agreement.
Seems to me selling a card with another companies images on it is promoting another company! (Often times I wonder if publically stating I like other products could be considered indirectly promoting- but I can't imagine they would go that far! But actually making money off another companies products? Seems to fit to me.)
Ldies - SU's Copyright on these images has not been infringed by these cards being sold in this store.
SU has a policy that their images may not be sold in a permanent retail location and another policy that you must use their angel policy stamp on any items using their images that are for sale.
...as this person is a TAC demo and that company has a different policy governing the sale of hand stamped items, I would suggest that she does not know she cannot do the same with her SU stamps. If you must get involved then be nice and call her and let her know about the SU policy and then let her decide if she wishes to remove the cards from the permanent retail location where they are being sold without the angel stamp on the back - altho it might be there underneath her TAC sticker?
...if she doesn't do so within a resonable amount of time then I guess you can contact SU and let them know about this violation of their policy - but do you really, really think that they will take action against this person just because she is selling cards in a permanent location? Or would you prefer to hassle the retailer that is trying to provide a nice service to their customers and has no knowledge about SU policy?
In order for SU to take legal action against this person they would have to have someone representing the company who is willing to testify in court on their behalf, physically go to this location, purchase a card and document the whole procedure. I just don't think they are going to do that - call me silly, but I just don't think they will.
I realize this is a rule that is being broken, and unfair to those who play by the rules, but in the long run is it going to be worth the upset and bad feelings?
J
btw: I reported a demo selling current merchandise on ebay to SU last year - sent the page links and everything. She is still a demo, and still occasionally selling current merchandise on ebay. Maybe this experience has made me a little cynical?
...and let's not forget all the demo's who are getting burned on their costs for sending in the napkins etc to help out SU with a (alleged) copyright infringement issue.
Not to split hairs, but SU "policy" actually states that you may not sell any items made with SU images in a permanent, fixed, retail location, whether you use their Angel Policy stamps or not. You cannot sell handstamped cards made with SU stamps in any retail location. Their images are copyrighted and any violation of their Angel Policy is Copyright Infringement, which is against the law.
I would politely let the demo know she is violating this policy, and let her make the choice from there. I would assume she does NOT know she is breaking the rules. But I would also let the store owner know, if she continues to sell them there.
Then I want to make sure that they are SU stamps - I recently looked at several stamp companies catalogs and on the internet and was astounded to see how many stamps look like SU images. I would be horrible to ruin a small business opportunity because you were wrong about the stamps she was using.
If you **are** compelled to do something.. then the only thing I would recommend is contacting the person directly. The rest of the ideas just seem mean spirited to me...
Art is intended to provoke an emotion from a total stranger. If you�ve succeeded in this, consider yourself an artist. Paper Shanks Blog. Love me or hate me, you are still talking about me
If it is SU's expectation that customers/demos are to be their police and to watching for and then reporting people, I take real issue with that. As a customer I find that very distasteful.
Art is intended to provoke an emotion from a total stranger. If you�ve succeeded in this, consider yourself an artist. Paper Shanks Blog. Love me or hate me, you are still talking about me
If it is SU's expectation that customers/demos are to be their police and to watching for and then reporting people, I take real issue with that. As a customer I find that very distasteful.
If it is SU's expectation that customers/demos are to be their police and to watching for and then reporting people, I take real issue with that. As a customer I find that very distasteful.
Then don't...As I said, *I* also would not. But I am also not the person to report ebay auctions because I think if they are clever enough to have been doing it so far, they probably have some system worked out where they won't get caught.
As far as this being an SU "policy" not true. Copyright law protects the owner of the material (in this case an image) from the reproduction of that image. The reproduction can be done many ways, photocopies, scans, stamped. Seemed crazy until I thought about it, but it IS a reproduction of something they hold the rights to. Now, SU grants a limited license for people to reproduce those images, the limitations being personal use, craft fairs, non permanent retail locations, blah blah, blah. :mrgreen:
Would SU go after the card maker? The business? Who knows? I am not one to be the SU police, BUT that does not diminish SU's right to protect their images and it does not diminish the fact that a law is being broken. Willfully or not, if it was my business, I would want to know. I'm sure this woman has invested a lot in her business and to put that in jeopardy IF SU should choose to enforce the policy is not right. It would be good for the business owner to know just in case this sort of thing comes up again in the future.
Now is this a huge deal in the game of life? Well, no. But just consider this woman's business and remember all those teenagers who download music illegally a few years ago (via Napster and other file "sharing" websites)and then their parents had to pay the fines....those kids knew it was wrong but never though the recording industry would enforce it.
I'll quit now as there are obviously two very polarized opinions on this subject and I wish to stay out of CE-type "discussion."
I'm just floored at the amount of people who apparently have no problem turning the other way when they see laws being broken.
No, of course it's not murder or grand larceny, but that's not the point.
Where do you draw the line? Someone has to be physically hurt in order for you to stand up for something? What about emotionally hurt? Financially hurt? One person or just a corportation? One rule or a bunch of rules? Privately or flagrantly?
I just don't see where you draw the line when you begin to tolerate law-breaking of any kind. Someone once said, "what one generation does in moderation, it's children will do to excess." Very sad, where we're headed.
__________________ Lyssa Griffin Zwolanek, Gold EliteSong of My Heart Stampers14-time incentive trip earner
I read through everything here, and there are certainly two very different views. This is the thought that kept going through my head:
Suppose I am a talented stamper. I've thought I could probably sell my cards in floral shops, coffee shops, etc. Alas, I can't do that because it is against SU's policy. I go back to showing them to my friends at work, and hoping they'll pass the word. Now I walk into your coffee shop and see this person's work. How do I feel? If only I'd gone against what I knew was right, I could have been making money here before this lady ever thought of it.
Do you see what I mean? It doesn't seem fair to the people who are follwing the rules. (This is a fictitious me, as I am not talented enough to sell my cards anyway.)
It's a dilema I am beginning to see as a teacher. I give a quiz. Most students study the night before, and do well on the quiz. A few kids fail it. We are asked to have a re-do policy. A student re-takes a similar quiz and gets a perfect paper. Is it fair for them to get an A, while the kid who studied in the first place gets a B? If you follow the rules, you expect everyone else to do so as well. If they don't, is it fair for them to come out ahead of you?
Just a thought.
Well, if it was me, I wouldn't worry about that as I see it as a very small thing in the big picture of life.
So you're basically saying that if someone went into a store and ripped off something small, that basically that doesn't count because it's such a small thing? Illegal is illegal, no matter how you slice it...
yes it is a small thing in the whole big scheme of things - but it is the principal of the thing...
first off I wonder why a TAC demo would purposely make and sell cards with a competing companies image on it and have her demo information on the back
secondly SU does have an angel policy - it limits the places you can sell your handstamped items and the fact that any Stampin Up handstamped items for sale be stamped with an SU COPYRIGHT stamp.
If people don't like SU's policy then they don't have to use SU stamps...simple enough right.
__________________ Jenni -Happy SU Demo - MY GALLERY & MY CHAOTIC LIFE One kid makes you a Parent - Two makes you a Referee
I saw some handmade cards in a hospital gift shop that had SU images. What did I do about it - ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!! Maybe when SU is done with their Napkin Police they can patrol the world looking for their images that are used against SU policy and prosecute all the all the violators to the fullest extent of the law, if we are lucky, there might be some public hangings!!! That's my CE response. On the way home from work today, I saw someone putting cardboard in a garbage can when they should have been putting it into the recycling box!
Every culture has a way of differentiating between the really bad stuff and minor infractions. The Catholic Church calls them mortal and venial sins. The US calls them felonies and misdemeanors, KWIM?
Copyright infringement is a big deal to the person who is hurt. Does it rise to the level of murder? Armed robbery? Of course not. While I personally would not get involved, I have no problem with someone else choosing to notify the stamper or the store of the correct SU copyright rules.
My failure to get involved is simply a judgment call on my part. I could be wrong -- I've seen similar violations and looked the other way. I did, however, report an abusive parent to child protection services, so I'm not a total deadbeat!! LOL
__________________ Dear Paperlicious is my blog...with a series on how I'm learning to improve my cardmaking by studying others.
I am going to take a slightly different approach here and assume I am the person selling the cards. I am a person who believes in following rules. I try very hard to do so. If I am not aware of a rule and unknowingly break that rule, I would be upset if someone who knew the rule did not let me know (in a nice manner of course.) If the shop owner was told by someone else about the issues and then came to me, I would be embarassed. I would also be upset that this person had not let me know first if they had the contact information so they could do so.
Personally, I make it my responsibility when I purchase any stamp to know it's policy on reproduction, and selling, etc.
I own the angel stamps for any sets that are available, I also print the copyrights on the backs of the cards from any sets that do not have angel policies. Granted, I do not sell my cards, but I feel that it is important to list who the card is copyrighted by etc.
I don't know if I'd rat on someone breaking policies personally - because I feel it is a personal responsibility to know about your stamps, and about their copyrights - but not everyone thinks about this or knows that when you use an image that it could possibly have a copyright...
If I had one of those days, and I felt like I had to do something about it, I would contact the person directly. No need to involve the big guys about it until you are 100% positive the person did it purposely. If the person is unsympathetic and just doesn't seem to care - then I'd say take it up with whatever company you deem necessary.
I don't see it as a big deal, only because I have better things to worry about = but it does pose a good question. How many little things with copyright policy can be ignored before it does become a bigger and much harder problem to resolve?
Just on a side note - I really do think that SU's policies suck... but I'm sure they have their reasons.. I just wish they would lax them just a little bit like some of the other companies...
I am going to take a slightly different approach here and assume I am the person selling the cards. I am a person who believes in following rules. I try very hard to do so. If I am not aware of a rule and unknowingly break that rule, I would be upset if someone who knew the rule did not let me know (in a nice manner of course.) If the shop owner was told by someone else about the issues and then came to me, I would be embarassed. I would also be upset that this person had not let me know first if they had the contact information so they could do so.
I completely agree... I don't advocate blowing the whistle on violators, however I do think they should be given the information that what they are doing is wrong. Give her the chance to correct her mistake, then if she proves to be unwilling to comply, take the next step and report it.
Sitting back and doing nothing accomplishes nothing. If she doesn't know the policy, inform her. If she does, then clearly she knows she's breaking the copyright laws and NEEDS to be held accountable.
Looking the other way may be the easy thing to do, but is it the right thing to do? I would want to know if I was unintentionally doing something wrong!
Just on a side note - I really do think that SU's policies suck... but I'm sure they have their reasons.. I just wish they would lax them just a little bit like some of the other companies...
I don't mean to hijack, but I agree with you here. I am hoping they are beginning to head in that direction since they just changed the rules for demo's allowing us to sell our products as well as be a demo at non-hostessed events.
I'm sorry if this has been mentioned before (I can't get through both pages of posts right now), but -
Did you look really, really closely at the images on these cards? I ask because there are TAC stamps that are so close to current and retired SUp images that you could easily think it was a SUp stamp when it really isn't.
Just a thought. They may be TAC stamps!
__________________ Judi 'Stamparooni'
If you can't eat it, drink it, or stamp it
you might as well throw it away!
I'm sorry if this has been mentioned before (I can't get through both pages of posts right now), but -
Did you look really, really closely at the images on these cards? I ask because there are TAC stamps that are so close to current and retired SUp images that you could easily think it was a SUp stamp when it really isn't.
Just a thought. They may be TAC stamps!
EXACTLY! I was just reading through to see if anyone else mentioned this before I went ahead with it. There are a LOT of similar sets. Reason being, it is very possible for an artist to design images for multiple stamp companies.
EXACTLY! I was just reading through to see if anyone else mentioned this before I went ahead with it. There are a LOT of similar sets. Reason being, it is very possible for an artist to design images for multiple stamp companies.
Karen Dromboskie - I loved your post girlfriend!
I know there are stamps that are very similar from both companies but Stampin' Up! does have it's own design team that designs exclusively for SU. I have worked with the head of that department and I know how it is run. They are not the same artists in this situation.
It still is possible that the images look very much alike.
Oh, some napkins have SU images on them and SU asked demos to buy the napkins and mail them to SU and then SU would reimburse the demos for postage. This issue has been the subject of:
a. serious contemplation and outrage
b. hilarity
c. a. and b.
d. none of the above.
LOL
__________________ Dear Paperlicious is my blog...with a series on how I'm learning to improve my cardmaking by studying others.
So you're basically saying that if someone went into a store and ripped off something small, that basically that doesn't count because it's such a small thing?
No, I didn't say that. My response was in reply to the situation presented by the initial post. The reasoning behind my response is that there are many MORE important things life and many more complicated situations in life that deserve more attention than someone selling cards in a coffee shop.
I won't be surprised to see SU! sometime in the next 12 months to change their angel policy to be more competitive with other companies. It makes business sense to not have to answer phone calls and letters that don't bring in ANY revenue.
Oh, some napkins have SU images on them and SU asked demos to buy the napkins and mail them to SU and then SU would reimburse the demos for postage. This issue has been the subject of:
a. serious contemplation and outrage
b. hilarity
c. a. and b.
d. none of the above.
LOL
Thanks for explaining. I PMed you, so as to not hijack the thread.
Oh, some napkins have SU images on them and SU asked demos to buy the napkins and mail them to SU and then SU would reimburse the demos for postage. This issue has been the subject of:
a. serious contemplation and outrage
b. hilarity
c. a. and b.
d. none of the above.
LOL
Seriously? I was wondering about the napkin comment myself.
I doubt SU cares enough to enforce it on the little guy. I go to many handcraft sales and see SU cards all over the place and some are even being sold by demos. I figure if you pay for the stamp and design your cards, you should be able to sell it. People sell quilts made with patterns they purchase. I cannot see much difference.
I doubt SU cares enough to enforce it on the little guy. I go to many handcraft sales and see SU cards all over the place and some are even being sold by demos. I figure if you pay for the stamp and design your cards, you should be able to sell it. People sell quilts made with patterns they purchase. I cannot see much difference.
I agree, I don't think SU will enforce on the little guy. Of course all those people that had to pay thousands of dollars in fines never thought the recording industry would go after the little guy for sharing songs online but they did.
And demos CAN sell at handcraft sales, I do craft fairs ALL the time. You just can't sell them in a shop or online. The difference between selling a quilt made from a pattern and selling a card is that you are reproducing a copyrighted image EVERY time you stamp.
And demos CAN sell at handcraft sales, I do craft fairs ALL the time. You just can't sell them in a shop or online. The difference between selling a quilt made from a pattern and selling a card is that you are reproducing a copyrighted image EVERY time you stamp.
Similarly- some quilts do not allow you to make them for sale. (If you ever read the McCalls or Simplicity clothing patterns at craft stores they say for non-commerical use only. These aren't quilt patterns, but some of them have the same restriction)
What is absolutely absurd is some FABRICS have limited licenses that are printed on their edging (if you don't get the first cut you can't read it) most Disney and NFL (etc) prints have non-commercial use only on them. You can't sell things you SEW out of disney fabric. That is crazy.
Similarly- some quilts do not allow you to make them for sale. (If you ever read the McCalls or Simplicity clothing patterns at craft stores they say for non-commerical use only. These aren't quilt patterns, but some of them have the same restriction)
What is absolutely absurd is some FABRICS have limited licenses that are printed on their edging (if you don't get the first cut you can't read it) most Disney and NFL (etc) prints have non-commercial use only on them. You can't sell things you SEW out of disney fabric. That is crazy.
Disney is insane :rolleyes: When I'm in the mall I'm afraid if I look in the store the wrong way I'll get a cease and desist letter LOL
I don't think anyone will argue that there aren't bigger, more important things in life to ponder.
Oh I don't argue for a minute that there are more important things... however many of the responses on this thread make it seem like breaking the law is ok if it's just a "little" law... after all, nobody got hurt, right?
Like I said, illegal is illegal, no matter what the crime. If you're an honest law-abiding citizen it's your duty to report these things, whether you feel they are "big enough" to worry about or not... looking the other way only encourages others to try to "get away with it".
I have to say that this is an interesting situation and i think that the responses are as varied as we all are. With that said, I find it rather odd that ppl are okay with stealing? While I don't go around looking for ppl to narc out, I think that if you see a very obvious infraction of law why is it wrong to contact the seller. Further more the comment about this situations effect on ending world suffering, yada, yada, yada.. How do you think that world suffering can about..one hint..greed??
I don't think that you are wrong to want to protect your business or your friends coffee shop. I think it is a bit much to contact SU! from the jump.
Mindy
__________________ Mindy An R.T. by trade, a SAHM by blessing, and a SU demo by passion!!!!
here's what I decided to do--email her first, then if nothing happens in a couple of weeks, tell the shop owner so she can protect herself by removing the cards. I really like the gal and I'd hate to see her get in trouble just because someone figured they wouldn't get caught.
As far as standing by when others do wrong--no wonder our world is in such a rotten state, if that's the opinion of the majority here. :(
The world is in a rotten state because there are people out there hurting others (pedophiles, adulters, swindlers, burglers, murderers).....the poor smuck who's using a stamp that THEY PAID FOR AND SIGNED NO CONTRACT SAYING THAT THEY WOULD USE IT IN A PARTICULAR WAY is in NO way making the world more "rotten".....get a grip!!!! It's time for people to loosen up and realize that we can't be nannies for all the piddly crap that for some reason is given great importance when ranks a minus 9 on the scale of what's wrong in the world. JMHO....flame away....
The world is in a rotten state because there are people out there hurting others (pedophiles, adulters, swindlers, burglers, murderers).....the poor smuck who's using a stamp that THEY PAID FOR AND SIGNED NO CONTRACT SAYING THAT THEY WOULD USE IT IN A PARTICULAR WAY is in NO way making the world more "rotten".....get a grip!!!! It's time for people to loosen up and realize that we can't be nannies for all the piddly crap that for some reason is given great importance when ranks a minus 9 on the scale of what's wrong in the world. JMHO....flame away....
[QUOTE=Boss]THEY PAID FOR AND SIGNED NO CONTRACT SAYING THAT THEY WOULD USE IT IN A PARTICULAR WAY [ QUOTE]
But the stamp you buy has a limited license. As a consumer it is your responsibility to know that. When I buy from itunes.com or any DVD I don't sign any sort of contract saying I will use it in a particular way, but as a consumer it is my responsibility to know what I can and can't do with it. I can't charge admission into my home to watch the DVD. Technically, without a license I'm not supposed to bring the DVD to school to show my class (yeah... this does happen a lot, but MANY schools are rule followers and have licenses from several companies), and I can't copy it and sell it on ebay. (Although I can sell my original, if I don't have a copy for myself). As the consumer it is my RESPONSIBILITY to know what the limited license of the product allows me to do. (Which is watch the movie in my home)
Quite honestly, although SU's angel policy is more restrictive than companies with a "true" angel policy (no restrictions except must be hand stamped- which is in and of itself a restriction), it's nice of them to have one at all. Some companies don't have any sort of angel policy. SU could just disallow ANY selling of products made with their images, rather than restricting them.
If you don't like the policy, don't buy their products or make an effort to change it.
I'm with GWTW on this one.
I say stand up for what you think is right. If everyone turned their head and looked the other way, it doesn't make things right, it doesn't make the 'bad' things go away. People that turn their heads will still see someone doing something else wrong in the other direction.
I found a similar situation. In a local store, an SU demo was selling cards. The store owner ranted and raved to me about how great the cards were. I agreed and then told her that I worked for the same company and that the woman was not supposed to sell the cards at a permanent location. The owner didn't know that. The cards have since been removed. I did not feel I was doing SU's policing. I felt I was representing a company that treats me well and that I believe in.
If you worked for the electric company and your neighbour was stealing electricity would you say something? If one person is doing it, there are more and everyone knows how shoplifting raises the prices of things and the people that don't shoplift end up paying for it.
Someone previously posted that the cardmaking woman will get caught but more or less let someone else do it. Who? How will she get caught if the majority of people here say to look away?
I think if more people said something the world would be a better place.
I know not everyone agrees, I've read the posts. But that's what's so great about this place.
Kelli
I'm confused. So many people are selling SU stuff on the internet but It is against SU's angel policy.
"You may sell your craftworks at community fundraisers, seasonal boutiques, bazaars or other temporary craft events. Hand-stamped items may be sold at nonhostess demonstrator events and at a demonstrator's booth at a temporary commercial event. Hand-stamped items cannot be sold in any permanent retail location (any location that conducts business in a store, consignment shop, kiosk, mall, or Internet site), nor may they be sold to other vendors for resale purposes."
So no one can sell stamped items on the internet or craft malls?
__________________ Kathi S. I really should go to my craft area and create but I'm always on SCS.Copic Addict: 205 and growingCrafting = OCD
No flaming from me. I have to agree with you that this doesn't even register on the meter of things to worry about.
I will no longer police anything for SU after they had a person kicked off ebay for selling handmade cards and stamps for her terminally ill friend who had very large medical bills. This person was not a demo and not even a stamper, so she knew nothing about an angel policy. I had purchased three retired background stamps and she sent them with a long letter apology as to why I would not be able to leave her feedback. She was banned from selling on ebay for 6 months due to having violated the copyright agreement because she kept relisting the card auctions thinking she had fixed the problem each time by adjusting the wording in the auction. She really had no idea what rule she was violating.
I even emailed SU's compliance department asking them to temper their compliance with some compassion and withdraw the complaint against this woman (I did not know her, but just felt that circumstances warranted giving her a break on this issue).
SU's answer back was that she should have called them if she did not understand the angel policy, so therefore, because she did not, they stood firm on her suspension. I think the average person selling a few items (not a power seller mind you, I think her feedback count was just over 150 over a couple of years) would be too intimidated to call a big company over a few handmade cards, even if it had occurred to her to pick up the phone and call them.
Bottom line, I think SU could have made an exception on this. And I know, a rule is a rule, and if you make one exception, where do you draw the line? Still, I just thought it could have been handled differently and in a more positive way. So, I've hung up my SU police hat.
I know we all view these things differently, and I am a soft touch when someone is trying to unselfishly help out a friend or unintentionally breaks a rule that really doesn't harm anyone else.
Please don't take this as a criticism. We all have to do what we think is the right thing--keeping in mind that everyone's heart has a different perspective on what's right for us individually.
